The Permission Layer: Who Told the Al It Could Do That? Richy Glassberg on Data Privacy, Consent, and Al Innovation
Updated: 3 days ago
AI agents can retrieve, combine, analyze, infer from, and act on enormous amounts of data—often at a speed no human compliance team can match. But access to data does not automatically confer the right to use it. So who sets the rules, and who remains accountable when an AI system crosses the line?
In this episode of Signal & Noise, Brett House and Rio Longacre sit down with Richy Glassberg, Co-Founder and CEO of SafeGuard Privacy, for a candid and wide-ranging conversation about privacy, consent, AI governance, and the digital advertising industry’s long history of creating problems it later asks technology to solve.
Richy brings a rare perspective to the discussion. He helped build CNN.com’s commercial business, co-founded the IAB, worked across publishing, agencies, ad tech, and media, and now leads a company focused on making privacy compliance and vendor diligence standardized, operational, and auditable.
The conversation begins with a provocative argument: AI may not require an entirely new category of privacy law because AI is ultimately software—and existing rules governing data use, discrimination, consent, and accountability still apply. The real challenge is enforcing those rules as AI dramatically increases the speed, scale, and complexity of data use.
Richy explains why companies are now responsible for privacy compliance throughout their vendor chains, including the DSPs, publishers, data brokers, identity providers, models, APIs, and other partners involved in a transaction. When one black box passes data to another black box—and AI begins making decisions across the entire chain—policies and promises are no longer enough. Organizations need standardized diligence, enforceable controls, ongoing monitoring, and proof.
The group also examines why today’s consent system is fundamentally broken. Cookie banners have created consent fatigue without giving consumers meaningful understanding or control. Privacy policies are rarely read, permissions do not travel cleanly across platforms, and people can opt out in one place only to reappear in the same identity graph somewhere else.
Other topics include:
Why an AI agent should never have more authority than the person or organization it represents
The tension between giving AI more context and protecting individual privacy
Why human oversight remains essential in agentic systems
How marketers should assess and monitor every company handling their data
Why privacy diligence must become machine-readable for real-time agent decisions
The failure of one-to-one targeting and the industry’s obsession with questionable audience data
How poor frequency management is damaging the connected TV experience
Why better privacy practices could become a mark of data quality and competitive differentiation
The threat AI-generated content poses to trusted information and the open internet
Whether consumer-controlled data and permission agents could produce a healthier advertising ecosystem
It’s a funny, blunt, and occasionally uncomfortable conversation about what responsible data use should look like when machines can move faster than the institutions meant to govern them.
Learn more about SafeGuard Privacy: https://safeguardprivacy.com/
#ArtificialIntelligence #DataPrivacy #AIPrivacy #AIGovernance #Consent #DigitalAdvertising #AdTech #AgenticAI #PrivacyTech #MarketingTechnology #DataGovernance #ProgrammaticAdvertising #SignalAndNoisePodcast
Read the full transcript below.
Brett (00:01.065)
Hey everybody, welcome back to Signal and Noise. This is Brett House, joined by my co-host Rio Longanker. And today's special guest is Richie Glassberg, the co-founder and CEO of Safeguard Privacy, which he's been running for about nine years. Welcome to the show, Richie. I've got a I've got a colorful intro outside of the fact that we I just learned that he's a muskie fisherman, and he fishes a famous fishery in the country in St. Lawrence River, which is
Rio Longacre (00:17.704)
Welcome, Richie.
Brett (00:29.781)
which is the border basically of US and and Canada. Right. yeah, someone someone that that if you guys if folks don't know who Richie is, he's been in the industry for a long time, been a been a a a very strong voice around privacy and diligence when it comes to to regulatory compliance for brands. And Safeguard Privacy was arguably the first company to build and manage GDPR and C C C P A.
Rio Longacre (00:31.902)
Yes, in Canada. And co and co Quebec, right?
Brett (00:56.137)
regulatory issues in the digital advertising space. I don't know if we can officially say the first, but I remember talking to you way back when, when we brought you on board at New Star. And I think you were one of the few, if if the only, company doing this.
Richy Glassberg (01:08.044)
Well, first of all, thanks for having me guys. yeah, I mean, we were the first legal compliance company. There were technical companies like OneTrust that did banner consent and stuff like that. But yeah, yeah, yeah, stuff like that.
Rio Longacre (01:18.676)
Cookie consent and stuff, yeah.
Brett (01:20.009)
Yeah. Yeah. And and and you were so you were a founding team member at CNN dot com. you co founded and were on the board of the IAB in nineteen ninety six. That's when I graduated college, not to age myself. which means Yeah, join the crowd. Join the crowd here. which means you kind of helped you were there in the very beginning when we were writing the rules of digital advertising
Richy Glassberg (01:34.156)
Hey, I'm old as dirt.
Brett (01:45.32)
for better or for worse, but clearly it gave you kind of ample experience in terms of what you're doing now with with safeguard privacy and especially considering the effect of AI. And I think you've argued that privacy kind of stopped being a legal artifact and became more operational infrastructure that's like critical to how a brand operates. And it's sort of a different mindset in how people typically think think about this, right? Yep. And then so people that don't know Safeguard, it's a SaaS solution.
that that basically helps organizations bring all it it brings in all of the privacy laws allows you to to to manage and and see the risk associated with and and and follow the compliance laws associated with the 23 US state privacy laws you know c c a 24 now and cpr are the best known not to mention EU with GDPR and the privacy directive I don't know if there's more beyond that
Richy Glassberg (02:34.519)
Twenty four now. Yeah. So
Rio Longacre (02:41.267)
That was the first one, yep.
Brett (02:42.941)
And and so I imagine the management and consolidation of all that information and the and the tracking of that over time is is a the the the problem that you're solving for, right? Which is incredibly complex.
Richy Glassberg (02:43.062)
Yeah.
Richy Glassberg (02:53.569)
So yeah, so in a in a simple thing. So so the interesting thing, well, I think it's interesting. I shouldn't say it's interesting. Look, I I'm I'm one of the few people that was a publisher head, a network head, ad tech head, and an agency head. So it it just means I failed at all four. but I I have a unique view of the industry. And when I had come out of we had pivoted
Brett (03:12.575)
Ha ha
Richy Glassberg (03:23.531)
Media Let's was the first mobile ad server. we had sold it to WPP. when I came out of my two years of confinement at WPP, medium security, not maximum security. I was trying to figure out what I wanted to do, and that's around when GDPR happened, ended 2017, 2018. And I looked at GDPR completely differently. I looked at GDPR as an anti advertising law.
Brett (03:38.099)
Yeah.
Brett (03:43.691)
Yeah.
Richy Glassberg (03:52.47)
If you break down these laws, these laws were all written for companies that have data on a consumer. So my thesis was these are laws to stop advertising. And I I've been in advertising since I graduated from college and I was a kid at MTV. and I love advertising. And if you think about advertising holistically, and you guys do a lot, it's a huge part of GDP. It is a huge part of the economy. And it's what drives brands, it's what drives usage.
Brett (04:08.502)
Yeah.
Richy Glassberg (04:22.419)
Without advertising. So I originally wanted to create a company to help other companies, software to help other companies manage their compliance to GDPR. And then everything started to happen so fast. Then there was a guy named Alistair McTavert who was at a barbecue in California asking his friends who were to Google why these ads tracked him. And he got so mad he founded California privacy and did a ballot initiative.
Which got the California law. And now from that point, when he realized how bad our industry was towards consumers, we now have twenty-four states and we got blah blah blah and we've got all this stuff. And if you think about it, my background, I've been in big media companies and not I've done kind of seven startups or turnarounds, three inside big media companies and four out. This is the second I've done all on my own. When I left CNN, I started a company called Phase Two Media, which was the first
premium rep firm and I ran that and it was a lot of fun. But what I learned when I was to a hundred million. We we grew up to a hundred million five in a less than a year, got filed to go public on February, you can look at my S1, February 18th of 2000 and March 14th is when pets.com went up and the internet bubble happened. So, you know, both but my experience look I was a kid at CNN, you know,
Brett (05:24.799)
Yeah, and you and you grew that to like eighty million, right? You raised a bunch of money around it, a hundred million, two hundred and fifty employees.
Brett (05:43.147)
Yeah.
Richy Glassberg (05:50.733)
Part of a team. I was part of five people. I was the revenue guy and the biz dev guy. There was Harry Macho in Atlanta and Scott Wolfell and Mark Bernstein. And we all were people inside Turner that Ted said, you need to start a website on the internet, and not to embarrass myself, but in January of 1995, I said, What is that? And you can laugh now in 2016. But right, so understand that.
Brett (06:09.121)
yeah. No no no. We're we're we're we're both old enough where I'm I when I was in college, I didn't have an email address. Websites were in
Rio Longacre (06:16.851)
I think I got my first email address in ninety six, maybe, ninety five, yes, round then.
Brett (06:20.118)
Yeah.
Richy Glassberg (06:20.629)
What right, but Rio, think about it. There was comp you served and Prodigy. AOL wasn't sending out those discs, and I'm the idiot in the meeting goes, What's that? And they're Shut up and figure it out. But that's a different podcast and different stories. But when in nineteen ninety-six about thirty-five people went to a meeting outside of Halsey Miner's office at CNET and we're like, We need a trade association. And having grown up in cable with the CAB, the cable advertising bureau.
Brett (06:32.287)
Yeah.
Richy Glassberg (06:48.989)
And the first ten pages of every sales pitch in cable was why cable versus broadcast and the Bates five percent solution and reach and frequency. And I'm like, hey, so then eight of us became the committee. We founded the IEB. Rich Lafergy was a chairman, I was a vice chairman, I served as his, you know, partner in crime, and we did a lot of things because people didn't believe that the internet was working. We did the standard banner sizes, we did why is this important to today?
We did the first T's and C's with people. We did the PwC spending thing. And all those things allowed marketers to know what this new thing was to shift dollars. Why does that matter today? It matters today because standards equal scale. And we knew that in broadcast and we knew that in print and we knew that in everything else. But this was a new medium and people didn't know what to do. By having standards, it
Brett (07:30.912)
Yeah.
Richy Glassberg (07:47.191)
Created a safe pool of water for marketers to step in and shift spending. You're you see that now happening all the time. And what that allowed was the massive growth. When we did the eight standard banner sizes, we had heard from people that 50% of all agency work was resizing banners. It doubled internet advertising the next year, but we couldn't prove that if we didn't have the price waterhouse study, which showed
Brett (07:53.632)
Yep.
Richy Glassberg (08:15.306)
And then we had a standard contract so that agencies could do it. You know, i i it was a hockey stick because we set the things. Yeah. Yeah. So so you know, it if you think about today and you think about privacy and you think about AI, especially now the shift to AI, all those same things from thirty years ago, we're going through that all again. So I it's just because I lived that life.
Rio Longacre (08:21.128)
Ironically, probably created more work, probably created more work resizing patterns after that anyway, too, right? Which is which is the funny part. yeah.
Brett (08:21.194)
Yeah.
Richy Glassberg (08:44.118)
This is helping me live this life over. It's groundhog day, right?
Brett (08:45.408)
Talk talk about yeah Yeah, yeah, and it's and the word that we keep hearing again and again, both technically and non technically is context and you have a ton of context. I think in the human aspect of context that that equates to wisdom. Right? You've seen and been there for a l for a lot of these things.
Rio Longacre (09:00.187)
Yeah. Gray hair, as we say in c and in consulting, right? So but but ri Richie, we're thrilled to have you. It's funny too, you said that you classify GDPR as an anti advertising law. No disagreement at all. I actually think C C P A and the C C P R C C C P R A that which followed it, I actually think those are more anti data broker, data collection, data compiler laws. you could say maybe kind of anti advertising, but I think that is an interesting call out you said. I no I actually don't disagree with the with the intent of it. But
Part of the reason why we wanted to have you on here is not only to hear about some of these stories from you know the ha creation of IAB, creation of standards, which no disagreement. Like you look at even linear television, until Nielsen came along in standardized measurement, no one could even sell it, right? The market, the market, like that's when it took off like a rocket ship after that. But looking specifically at privacy, I think when a lot of brand like when when brands and marketers think about privacy, they usually think, about regulation.
Brett (09:44.138)
Yep.
Yeah.
Rio Longacre (09:58.045)
They think about compliance. They think we're having to deal with those those departments, right? And with consumers think about privacy, I think about those annoying a cookie a cookie banner pop-ups, right? Which are which definitely don't create a great experience. So so I think that people, I mean, there's probably a good debate about like have has have these worked, has have it protected people, have have these extra rights, are they even being exercised? But more broadly, which you meant you mentioned with AI, I think we're at a really, really critical juncture right now. Now that Asians can
Retrieve, combine, analyze, and act on enormous amount amounts of data. And we're collecting more data now than we ever were before. What does that really mean? Like I mean, the emerging question really is now that machines are doing a lot of this, what does this mean in terms of what should it like? Are do they need consent? What are they doing with this data? What do we want to do with it? Right. So these are all good questions. We're excited to dig in. So I know you want to jump in now. So go for it, Richie. I do have a couple questions though.
Richy Glassberg (10:52.726)
So Rio, that's like an hour right there. let let's so I I so look, I I here's the thing. All of these are anti advertising laws. Advertising now is data brokers because advertising has shifted from Nielsen and audience segments to the somewhat false belief that you actually know Rio.
Brett (10:54.912)
We might have to have a part two of this episode.
Rio Longacre (10:55.411)
Well that's
Brett (11:19.232)
Yeah.
Richy Glassberg (11:20.872)
Look, I mean, Brett, you're at Newspar, everything there there's been a million studies, and it's a different podcast. You can have Steve Silvers or other people on it about, you know, have you ever pulled your data Rio? It doesn't look like you. And you're gonna be like, you know, right. It's not okay. Okay, right. We all agree. Right.
Brett (11:33.01)
yeah, no, and I I give that example back yeah, back back when I was an e excellent pre Nielsen. Yeah. I was I was a single urban influencing female in Manhattan, which it which I think is kinda funny. When I first saw that, that's when I realized how broken that that cookie data ecosystem was.
Rio Longacre (11:34.129)
It's not accurate at all. Yeah, agreed. Yeah, Brett Brett Brett you Brett, you're you're you were a woman in one of the segment, right? Weren't you? Right, yeah.
Richy Glassberg (11:44.598)
That's fine. It's fine. Great. So, guys, understand. We went from Nielsen saying I was a male 25 to 50. I'm not anymore, sorry. I'm that's terrible. I'm 63, so screw it. I'm I'm an old dog. But whatever. You bought if you were a CPG, you bought females 18 to 30 or 25 to 34 because you assumed.
Brett (11:57.131)
Yeah.
Richy Glassberg (12:11.519)
They had a children and that, blah, blah, blah. All these misogynists stupid things, right? They just bucketed people, right? They just had these things. Now, you think you know that Richie Glassberg is a female 25 to 54 single and living in Manhattan, because the data tells you that. I'm I'm goofing, guys, but it the advertising, these are data broker laws real because advertising went from segments to actually believing it's one-to-one marketing. The lie is that it is one-to-one marketing when it's not.
Brett (12:17.545)
Yeah.
Richy Glassberg (12:41.577)
And we have to understand that that that's just not true anymore. And everybody's chasing this. If I had the right ad at the right place at the right time, and they're gone down this rabbit hole and they forget the fact that you could just be watching an old episode of Sopranos and you could see an ad for something and go, I didn't know about that. I didn't know I needed that. And you don't fit in any of those buckets, right? Serendipity and the buyer's choice, I think so these are
These are a different conversations. They're all about creativity and advertising. But it comes back to privacy real. Let's bring it back to privacy. AI doesn't need laws. AI is software. AI is an algorithm. We've been running on algorithms for since programmatic. When's the start of programmatic, guys? Two thousand seven. What? Fifteen years ago? Okay, guys. It's software. The law says you can't use the data. Just because AI is using it, you think you need an AI law? Get out of here. Stop it.
Rio Longacre (13:26.535)
Yep. Fifteen years ago, yeah.
Brett (13:27.935)
Yeah.
Richy Glassberg (13:39.647)
Wake up. You don't need AI regulation. You need to follow privacy regulation because it will trip you up and kill you if you don't follow it.
Rio Longacre (13:44.743)
Well r Richie, that's a that that fact in fact that's a really good argument, which I've heard a lot about AI regulation is why are we passing this nonsense? We already have laws protecting people against discrimination, protecting people's privacy, protect all of these laws have been re passed years ago, codified, regulated, litigated. We know what they are. Why we don't need new laws? That's a good argument.
Brett (13:45.778)
It is is pr is so is pro
Richy Glassberg (13:54.911)
Thank you.
They're there. Yep. Yep.
We don't need new laws. We don't.
Brett (14:04.157)
Well so so so what do you think of the NIST, which is the National Institute of Standards and Technology, right? The the the US Federal Agency for those that don't know inside the Department of Cong Congress, it's been around forever, I think nineteen one, right? And they just recently, like this year, I think February of this year, launched an AI agent standards initiative, right? Because, you know, federal controls can't tell people from AI, right?
Richy Glassberg (14:10.975)
Next if
Nest. Yeah, nest.
Richy Glassberg (14:23.231)
That's different. But that's but that's different. That's not that's not privacy laws, and that's not how you use the data. Isn't a a lot of the standards are, and I don't know the exact NIST AI standards. I apologize, I don't have them in front of me, but that that isn't privacy. You have laws in 24 states which cover most of Americans that say you can't use the data, you have to get permission to use the data if the consumer
Brett (14:39.294)
Yeah.
Brett (14:44.99)
Yeah.
Rio Longacre (14:50.045)
You can't pr you can't pr you you can't you can't discriminate against protected classes based on data I mean there's lots of stuff there's laws are already there.
Richy Glassberg (14:53.099)
Yeah, you can't discriminate. You can't right. It's there. So missstand, you know, there's lots of standards out there. There's a standard on how you package penne pasta or how long you can put tomatoes in a can. But that doesn't mean there's millions of standards out there. The question is advertising, it's the lifeblood of our industry. How do we create an ability for, and I don't want to pick a brand because that's unfair, a major automotive.
A bank, a major retailer, to make sure they're doing the right thing while they're advertising to the consumer. What we do is create software to help them save time and money and mitigate risk, to make sure that they are doing the right thing and their vendors are. So for the first time in our industry, you are your brother's keeper. So I'm an advertiser, Rio's the DSP, Brett is the data broker.
And my dog sitting behind me is another data broker. Me as the advertiser, I am legally responsible for Brett and then what Rio and what Rio does with Brett and what Brett does to Jack used to Jack Russell. You are literally responsible all the way down the string. So if the third data broker didn't get consent or didn't let somebody opt out, you know, it's it's ta it's tainted. There's a decent Yeah, right.
Brett (16:04.86)
Yeah.
Rio Longacre (16:14.639)
Or if there's a D SAR you need it you need to tr you need to trace the entire child chain of custody. It's a domain such subject access request where you can request your information from yeah.
Brett (16:20.019)
And
Richy Glassberg (16:20.019)
Right, or yep, or if the a hundred percent. Right. Or if there was an opt out. You're responsible and and you as the advertis. This hasn't happened before, right? So this is something that people don't get. Makes it worse.
Brett (16:24.148)
Yeah.
Brett (16:30.717)
Yeah. Does it does AI and do the models make that yeah, do the models make that more difficult? If they if they pulled in more information that that is now you've you let's say you opted out po yeah, post post sort of model absorption, what do you do from that point?
Rio Longacre (16:38.867)
Good luck tracing that. Good luck. You'll never do it.
Richy Glassberg (16:41.749)
Brett, Brett, you were at New Star. You you understand how this works. Programmatic. It's it's a black box. Everybody's got their own black box. It's hard enough to discern what's happening in one black box, but if the black box went to another black box to another black box to another, how are you gonna do this? The only way you can do it is to you gotta go back to regulated businesses. If you're a bank, you're regulated. If you're a insurer, you're regulated. You're an auto, you're regulated. Most people are regulated out there.
Brett (16:50.974)
Yeah.
Brett (16:59.316)
Yeah.
Richy Glassberg (17:12.777)
You have to make sure there are proper controls in place and that people are attesting and demonstrating their compliance. And what we did was automate that so that every vendor can answer the same. This is where I get back to standards. What was happening was everybody was writing their own privacy questionnaire. It was destroying everybody. So if you were on the other side of it, you were answering the same question slightly different hundreds of times. If you're Google thousands of times, you were answering questions Yeah.
Brett (17:30.396)
Yeah.
Brett (17:37.853)
Yeah. Yeah. And this is advertisers giving this questionnaire to vendors, right?
Richy Glassberg (17:42.345)
Yeah. So you were you were answering questions like a DSP, but you were a publisher, you're right. The whole thing was phakakta mammy. That's not a curse, it's just an old Yiddish word. And what what the I so I built this company and three years ago in the summer of twenty twenty three, eighty companies of the IAB, ten law firms, all get to a meeting under Michael Hun, who's really good guy, who's the GC of the IB, and they said, Stop the madness. Stop it. This is insane.
It's wasting time. It's getting in the way. We want to do the right thing. We can't do the right thing. So what we did was they went and looked. We were the only company that built an auditable platform that does this, that it standardized the assessments. So the IAB, we are the white label behind the IAB. It's the first industry standard for this. We have a standardized assessment. Rio, you answer it once, you can share it 50 times. Yeah, that's what we did. So this is gonna get to your you what we want to talk about AI down the road, because this is the building block to that.
Brett (18:30.109)
Yeah. Is that is that the is that the IAB diligence platform or IA B Diligence Network, right?
Richy Glassberg (18:41.876)
And then the IB, with all these 80 companies and 10 law firms, wrote the right data flow questions of an advertiser to a DSP, a DSP to an SSP, an advertiser to a publisher. And we standardized it. So, Brett, if you're a publisher, you do it once, you could share it a hundred times. Rio, if you're a DSP, this is what the world should be doing instead of everybody. The problem is, you know, you put three lawyers in a room, total it.
Brett (18:59.956)
Yeah.
Brett (19:05.15)
Yeah.
You're removing friction you're removing friction from you know, which helps I
Rio Longacre (19:10.567)
Well well yeah, but he but here's but here here's a question about I guess maybe a little controversial question about privacy laws generally. So I I mean the privacy industry, I know you run a privacy company, Richie, has been telling companies, it's privacy is good for business, right? It's it's ultimately better, it's better for consumers. Yet I think from a certainly from a a a a marketer perception, it's just been more compliance, more red tape, more it hasn't really I don't know if it's improved anything, right? And maybe some attorneys have gotten rich filing like
Richy Glassberg (19:11.572)
Hundred percent.
Rio Longacre (19:39.323)
lawsuits for DC f for you know for people violating C C PA or or or GDPR. I mean and you know the so has it has the industry act I mean, has it failed to make the case properly? Has implementation been bad or just or are these just these cruddy laws and people just have to comply with them anyway? Like have they helped consumers, do you think?
Richy Glassberg (19:39.454)
I agree with you. I agree with you.
Richy Glassberg (19:56.981)
Okay. So we gotta break this down. I think the intent was to help. I don't think they are helping. I think you've got two flavors, at least in Europe you got GDPR, it's one flavor. In the US, you've got the California model, Colorado model, and it's a mess. And you got Washington, My Health, My Data, you got kids, blah blah blah.
There's too much conflict. There's a lack of enforcement, Rio. There's all these laws and nobody's enforced them. Right? Without without enforcement, there's not gonna be adoption, right? It's
Brett (20:24.115)
Yeah. Yeah. And it and it it but it but but it hasn't ha hasn't enforcement
Rio Longacre (20:30.803)
It seems like the but but the US model is to let attorneys enforce it, let the courts enforce it, right? I mean as un unlike unlike the EU who's saying, Okay, we're gonna find you a shitload of money, like if you keep violating it too egregiously, right here it's more so
Richy Glassberg (20:35.7)
That's a good point.
Richy Glassberg (20:41.65)
Hundred percent. But but Rio, but wait wait, time out. Hold on, Rio. Yeah, yeah, let me come back. Brett, hold on. Hold on, guys, you're throwing too much at me. Slow down, boys. Rio. The plaintiff's bar is enforcing not California's privacy law. They're going after SIPA, a X number year, decades old wiretapping law on pixels. That's not enforcing privacy. It's
Brett (20:43.591)
Well I mean Califor California California's put Yeah.
Brett (21:06.579)
Yeah.
Richy Glassberg (21:07.75)
It's the plaintiff's bar is making the most noise and they're not helping the consumer because all they're doing is shaking down the people in the industry. Bad. Very bad outcome. Old law being used in a bad way. People are trying to fix that. Brett, the wait, where was your point? Was your point you got you got
Brett (21:24.881)
No no my no my point, you know, I like what I've been reading is that that you're starting to see more enforcement. This just this year, California's had a bunch of of lawsuits against Disney, Play on Sports, Ford, right, these are big brands. Is it picking up?
Richy Glassberg (21:30.036)
Yes, California. Yes. Yes.
Rio Longacre (21:31.603)
Starting to, yeah.
Richy Glassberg (21:36.008)
Yep. Honda, yep. All it is picking up. And there are, truthfully, a lot of letters out there. They send a letter first. These things take these these things take a couple years. But there is hundreds of letters out there. So yes, it is picking up, but that's just one state. It's California, you got twenty out twenty-four other states. So let's go to your original point, Rio. Is this helping the consumers? No. No. I don't think it's helping the consumers at all. It's making it worse for the consumers.
Brett (21:48.788)
Yeah.
Brett (21:56.19)
Yeah.
Richy Glassberg (22:05.608)
What are the problems? With the original implementation in in Europe with the banners, we have the same thing. Remember, Rio, you're a creative guy. Remember banner blindness? People weren't seeing the ads? You have cookie banner blindness. It's become bullshit, guys. It's terrible. You can't go I go to Europe Black, we just launched the IAB diligence platform in Europe as a pan European thing. You can't get off the plane. Every everything you go to. it's horrible.
Rio Longacre (22:19.229)
Terrible. Absolutely terrible.
Rio Longacre (22:30.363)
No one knows what the the what the options mean. No one knows what to click. No one knows with like it it it in sh it in shitifies the experience. I love that word. It it it
Richy Glassberg (22:34.992)
And you just yeah. It shittifies the experience. It's terrible. Well, no no no. I I tell my friends to say reject all, Brett. Reject all. But what it does is
Brett (22:38.61)
Yeah. Yeah, you're just like accept all, accept all, accept all. I just wanna see the content.
Yeah, but then I can't get the I can't get to the content that I'm looking for.
Richy Glassberg (22:51.198)
Yeah, you can. They have to give you the content. They just it's just the cookies headset, dude. Come on, you've been in this long enough, Brett. look, guys, it's it's performative. It's performative. It it doesn't work. It doesn't help you, it doesn't help me. I still go to the number one e-commerce site, buy the same pair of Meryl shoes I buy every five years, and I still see that same ad for 30 days. Guys, it's the number one site out there. I purchased it. So
Brett (22:54.812)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Brett (23:15.208)
Yeah.
Richy Glassberg (23:19.858)
Here's why these laws happen. So Rio and Brett, the algorithm is stupid. It doesn't know the difference between my married shoes, hiking shoes that I buy every five years, and if I search for cancer, or if I search for depression, or I searched for my mother has this or something. And the algorithm, the reason we have these laws is because all of these pixels and trackers.
Can't discern between something that is a product you want bought and something that is not. And then the data brokers, you don't understand your brother, your mother, your father, your sister, a friend has leukemia and you search leukemia. You're in the data broker as in the leukemia segment. That's horrible. It's absolutely horrible. And it shouldn't happen. And the algorithm is stupid and it doesn't know the difference.
Brett (24:06.778)
Yeah. Yeah.
Richy Glassberg (24:14.053)
If the number one e-commerce site that I love and I use every day and I buy that product doesn't know enough to turn the tracker off because I goddamn bought the product. I don't need it again. Why do I see that ad for 30 days? I'm in the business and I'm frustrated. Take the three of us out of this, guys. You're just, you're just a regular person on the internet. You hate the fact that you're being tracked by this. And then you're being tracked by a recovery center or a stop smoking thing or an anti-cancer thing. And you're like, why is this tracking me?
Brett (24:27.432)
Yeah.
Brett (24:42.94)
Yeah, my yeah, my father's always said for years that I'm in the surveillance marketing industry. that I said, No, I'm you know
Richy Glassberg (24:49.129)
Guys, this is the problem. This is the heart of the whole problem of privacy. And then you've your father's been clicking these banners and it doesn't stop. So what are we doing here as an industry? We forgot the consumer. I'm sorry to be an asshole, but I love our industry. We forgot the consumer. You don't need 200 data points on me to sell me a lemon pasta tortoci. Right.
Brett (25:14.684)
To be relevant. Yeah.
Rio Longacre (25:16.047)
Okay, but C C P but C C P A, if you look at its intent, right, it was to give you rights over your data, how it was collected, stored, make sure it's you make sure it's make sure it's collected legally, make sure it's stored the way that's safe, how it's shared, and to be able to report on how it's being used and to be able to trace if it actually is going anywhere and give you the ability if you want to opt out that it'll be deleted everywhere in that chain of custody, everyone you shared it with. So it I I get it that gets very difficult when you look at programmatic with all the data exchanges.
Richy Glassberg (25:42.228)
California is not a the bad guy here. regulators are not ad tech people. The bad guy is the ed tech people that have been ignoring this for since GDPR and trying to find workarounds and not trying to be compliant. By the way, California just started drop on August first. So that I think there's like 500,000 Californians. Everybody's got to wake up. Every other state is going to join California. They built it. Once they prove it works, it's very easy software guys to say,
Connecticut, you want your version here.
I mean, I I think California's trying. I think I we meet with the regulators. They're really good people. People in ad tech who have their head in the sand better understand that they are hiring technologists that know this stuff as good as you do, and they're going after people. They can buy the same tools to see the same trackers on your site that are publicly available out there and see if you're if you're doing the opt-out or not doing the opt-out. And with drop, you're starting to see the fines with that.
These fines are statutory. They're gonna hit some big people in the next couple of months. You're gonna see million dollar fines.
Rio Longacre (26:46.279)
These these are not big these are not big you could argue these are not big fines, right? Like let's say like a million bucks here, two million bucks there for
Richy Glassberg (26:51.507)
The the first drop fine was a the the first drop fine was a hundred and thirty thousand for some data broker. There's some big guys that are going there could be tens of million dollar fines because they're statutory and they can't they can't negotiate I'm waiting for that to happen. Yeah. there's there's there's big numbers, the General Motors number, I mean, and I love GM. It's
Brett (27:06.3)
Well t didn't Texas didn't Texas have a one point four billion dollar settlement with Google? I mean and people don't people think of yeah, those are big numbers.
Rio Longacre (27:12.477)
Th those are big numbers.
Richy Glassberg (27:20.221)
They shouldn't have sold the on-store data to the insurance companies. I don't want to get into that example, but this is we do this to ourselves, guys. We're doing this to ourselves. And as an industry, we're hurting ourselves time and time again. And you know what, Rio? You're right. It's the plat a lot of the abuse happens in the platforms. That's why you see these huge fines in the EU to the platforms, because the black box and the platforms. So I
Rio Longacre (27:48.115)
So it almost sounds like you're making the argument that we do need these regulations or some regulation to protect consumers because I mean I agree. When you look at I be I've worked in digital advertising for twenty six years, I guess, right? I mean, like for sure, when if people understood how much is being collected, they they'd be horrified. They really don't understand how much even even looking how much Google has on people, they'd be horrified, right? And forget about all of the all
Richy Glassberg (27:54.097)
I a hundred percent agree.
Richy Glassberg (28:09.224)
Rio, why do you think I built I built this company and you know, I bootstrapped this for five years 'cause I believe that regulation is not a bad thing. I just don't think we're following it, the spirit or the letter of it. And I think we I think we as an industry need to do better.
Brett (28:27.685)
Yep. And that and that starts with standardization of the of of of a lot of these processes.
Richy Glassberg (28:28.262)
I really do. Yeah. Rio, I agree with you. I I think we need to do better. You don't need two hundred data points on me to sell me a package good. You don't. It just I we we've lied to
Brett (28:42.139)
Yeah.
Rio Longacre (28:42.919)
Well well well I think the mantra the last it's been let's collect more data, more data, more data. That that's been the mantra for the last twenty five years, collect more 'cause we can do more with it. Because if if the goal is one to one marketing, which really doesn't exist, right? I mean you some things maybe like retargeting maybe are are actually one to one, but in general, Richie, the point you made before and Brett, you were echoing, a lot of the data that's out there is not very accurate, right? So even if you tried to do one to one marketing, it wouldn't be very effective. And it probably wouldn't work any better and j and just broad audience based marketing is you usually is good enough.
Richy Glassberg (29:11.922)
So the the lie that we've told CMOs is we've told her that you need a thousand data points to sell your product. And there's very few products that you need that much data points. And that arms race has created brands spending more and more money on bigger and bigger data lakes. I can't believe they call it data lakes, all these things when you really don't what where where if that was true, why didn't every marketer grow by eighty percent?
Instead of the two percent they're usually growing by. Who grew by eighty percent? The people selling them all that data. Right? Guys, the the identity layers, all these people. Let's talk, let's That's different. Very different. Very different. Very different.
Brett (29:46.866)
Yeah, yeah. And and it's and and with yeah, if if they've got a yeah, if they've got a ton of first party data, that that that's great to know 'cause it's c that's that's customer lifetime value, that's advocacy, right? It's authenticated and and sort of consented, right? But but but I think to your point, you can model probably a very small sub segment of that data, to to that that that is really what's gonna drive some some level of performance, yeah, with with a prospect, right?
Richy Glassberg (30:11.516)
And do just as good. Yeah. Look, Rio, you're you're a hundred percent right about what's happening here. I think we've lost the thread with that we forgot that it's the consumer and we've made the consumer experience. Look, I there are websites that I used to go to that I can't go to. I don't need to see 30 ads on a page. We did it to ourselves. Let's talk about, you know, you want to talk about no BS? Let's let's have a real conversation about this.
You know, we we've we cluttered these pages up so that they're crap, guys.
Rio Longacre (30:41.906)
But the but
So so Rishi, Sir Rishi, you said and I don't disagree with that these laws are anti advertising. Are they are they anti advertising just because the advertising industry is so broken or are they anti advertising just because the the authors of them are kind of anti capitalistic, right? And just wanted to target these industries because they don't like them. I think with GDPR you could probably make that argument, right? what what do you think they are? I mean, are they good laws or are they bad laws? Do the do do we need new laws or existing laws prior to these probably okay?
Brett (30:45.552)
Yeah.
Richy Glassberg (31:12.186)
I that that's a it that's that's I don't think prior to this we had good enough laws about the data. I it's too hard to paint it as good or bad. I don't think that legislators are anti capitalist. We're in a let's just cut it out. We're in a capitalist country. Everyone wants people to do business. If they were anti capitalist they would block shit and s shut stuff down. I just don't think the
They have the level of sophistication and understand the level of of complexity in the system that they're trying to regulate. Right. Part of the problem is they wrote these laws after the systems were built. So the underpinning of most device graphs is a what is it, 18 to 22, 21 digit number, Brent and Rio, that is always there no matter what. So instead of saying, forget me.
Brett (31:47.483)
Yeah.
Richy Glassberg (32:08.53)
Shouldn't the laws have been written to say, I don't want this data used? You can keep, because you can't lose Rio from the device graph. You can't lose Ritchie from the device graph. It's gonna be there in the very bottom. But should the laws have been written differently instead of forget saying, I don't want you to use my data for advertising?
Rio Longacre (32:28.791)
well it's funny when so I that was actually like a conundrum we came up to with 'cause I did a lot of C C PA work when I came out, Richie. It's funny. I the the the question was if someone actually has a delete request, like a tombstone request for their data, and you do you do delete it from everywhere, you still have to prove that you've deleted it, which is kind of paradoxical, right? I I always thought that was interesting. But but looking at first party data, Brett, you mentioned this and Richie loved to get your take on this. I remember there was this big push when cookies were third party cookies were deprecating and obviously Google never really f
Richy Glassberg (32:47.538)
The whole thing, dude.
Rio Longacre (32:57.757)
fully did away with them, but there has been a lot of signal loss, right? As privacy laws have gone into effect. And I remember there was this big push, use first party data. This is this will be your way to solve for privacy you get. But I think that opened up the question of is this actually consented? And I think with AI, that's maybe even more important now because what are they actually consenting that you can do with that data? Thoughts on that?
Richy Glassberg (33:18.898)
So don't confuse AI with anything other than software. And if you talk about an agent, I'll give you an example. If you hire a real estate agent, they can't sell your house for less than you want. They're an agent to your demands. So don't just say the agent went and did it. No, I don't I can't hire a real estate agent and say, I'm gonna sell my house for a million dollars, and he or she comes back and say, I sold it at 500 grand, you're out of here. I'm like, no.
Brett (33:35.323)
Yeah.
Richy Glassberg (33:47.824)
Is my house, I control it. You're my agent. So don't confuse agent for control. So the agent should only do what you tell it to do. So if you tell it to forget you, it should forget you. If you tell the agent to go buy Brett, it has to go buy Brett, not buy Rio. So stop conflating that the agent can just do whatever you do. You're in charge of your agent. It's software. You control the thing. So let's let's cut that out now.
AI just I think the biggest difference is the speed, and I think the problem is.
Our model, there's so many models to talk about. The model of the agency is kind of broken. We know that, right? It's an army of 24-year-olds with hands-on keyboards to do this stuff. So now they're going to replace this with an agent. All of a sudden it's going to make people profitable. I'm not saying agencies aren't good. I'm not saying any of that. So please don't kill me. But you can't have the human completely out of the loop.
Brett (34:35.791)
Yeah.
Brett (34:50.256)
Yeah, from a governance perspective and a management orchestration perspective.
Richy Glassberg (34:50.807)
And we we can't right. We can't from governance, we can't have the pendulum swing that there's no more twenty-four-year-olds, the thousands of twenty-four-year-olds that start an agencies every year, and then an agent's just gonna go do it for you. Human AI with human control and human interaction is the strongest. I'll give you another example. You talk to any CTO, Claude is really good at writing code, not on its own, it has no thought. You have to literally engineers are going from code writing
Brett (34:57.489)
Yeah.
Richy Glassberg (35:19.793)
code direction. And the more specific you are about the code direction, the better Claude Code and faster it can write it. So now transfer that to the agent. Stop. Everybody's like, the agents are gonna do everything.
Brett (35:21.168)
Yeah.
Brett (35:24.88)
Yeah.
Rio Longacre (35:29.489)
Well, but she that's an interesting contradiction you just brought up. Like AI gets much better the more and Brett, you brought up the term context before. The more context you feed this thing, the better it gets. I mean, not it doesn't get two or three X better, it gets like a hundred X better, right? The more the more you give it, right? So yet but you I think that's the contradiction is like you're giving it more information. Do you have l do you have less do you th therefore have less privacy? I'm just wondering from devil's to play devil's advocate, your thoughts on that?
Richy Glassberg (35:38.215)
Yeah. Yeah.
Richy Glassberg (35:51.035)
Why? Why? I'm saying.
Richy Glassberg (35:56.834)
no, privacy, yes. yeah, yeah, that's different. I thought you meant control over the agent. So the more so the human has to have control over the agent. So for privacy, yes, I agree with you. You're gonna have less privacy because I think AI, the algorithm and the the software is going faster. I you're gonna I you know what I'm scared about with AI? We're gonna lose control of our devices. I think hacking and phishing is getting so much more sophisticated. You won't be able to tell it apart. You know, we are a very
Brett (36:14.331)
Yeah.
Richy Glassberg (36:26.897)
We're small, but we're a mighty company. We're a SOC2 type 2, which is unheard of for a company of our size. We have to have intrusion training. We have to, because I work for some of the biggest companies in the world managing their legal compliance. So we have to be like a big company and we built all the protections on. There's no data, there's no personal data on our platform, but we act like there is. Dude, my email is a mess today. I challenge you to show me a CEO or anybody senior in an organization whose email isn't a destruction. It's like, hey Richie, I noticed.
Brett (36:45.499)
Yeah.
Richy Glassberg (36:55.697)
That you did great stuff with the IB. What if I could get you five more? I mean, the AI has made this intrusion on my privacy insane. And my phone is useless. It's useless. I use T Mobile. I've got the anti spam filters, the anti call filters, I got everything. Useless. Doesn't matter. Useless. Useless.
Rio Longacre (37:01.819)
It's insane. it's it's absolutely absolutely insane.
Brett (37:05.5)
Yeah.
Brett (37:12.922)
Yeah, yeah, I've got I've got my do not disturb on at all times. And then I've got and then I've got colleagues complaining, Well, I can't get in touch with you and I'm like, Yeah, but if I take my do not disturb off, spammers are gonna get in like ten, fifteen a day.
Richy Glassberg (37:22.897)
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Text me. It's this is horrible. AI has destroyed your privacy. It goes faster, it goes deeper. And like we said earlier, when we the the caveman days of one black box to another black box or the other, now you layer AI over those black boxes. I mean my email is is a mess.
Rio Longacre (37:45.149)
Yes, I posted I I posted it something in LinkedIn for a friend who was looking for a r to hire a part time role a couple of weeks ago. And I said, I didn't even say what company was for. I said it's for a friend. DM me, send me your C V if interesting. Some fucker called my phone like a minute later. I was s like ha like some random how did you get my number? Well, I probably from Zoom info or some not yeah, but it's like a data broker, right? But it's like it's in it's insane. Like in a it was all through AI, I'm sure.
Richy Glassberg (37:56.785)
Big mistake.
Richy Glassberg (38:01.179)
Yeah, yeah.
Richy Glassberg (38:06.555)
Data broker. Yeah. Data broker. It's insane. It's a so AI is hurting privacy because it speeds it up and it's finding correlations that the regular algorithm couldn't find, right? You to your point, Rio, I'm agreeing with you a hundred percent. It is getting faster, it's getting more intrusive, and it's gonna make our modes of communication worse, at least on Slack.
Brett (38:08.121)
A Dana Broker.
Brett (38:13.807)
So
Richy Glassberg (38:34.767)
My team nobody from outside my team is on Slack yet today, thank God. So we can communicate. My email's a mess now. I gotta delete half my emails 'cause it's phishing stuff.
Brett (38:42.063)
Yeah.
Rio Longacre (38:43.399)
The c but the contradiction is more information equals better AI, but more information equals less privacy. I think that's the contradiction I think is quite interesting about this. More information, more context, more information gives the AI better context. So it actually is a much better product or service, right? That you're interacting with. But because you're giving it more information, I mean in theory, like your your privacy is diminishing because you're feeding this thing information about yourself.
Richy Glassberg (38:51.559)
So say that again, more AI.
Richy Glassberg (39:00.347)
But it does inter yeah. Yeah. Yes. Yeah.
Yes, you're 100% right. Yeah, we're we're we're hurting ourselves every day. We're making the tools that we need to work for efficiency worse. Right? So what I'm trying to do is I'm trying to in the best possible way standardize privacy compliance and then use those tools. So what did we do? You think about this. How does the agent make the right decision on the right vendor?
In real time for privacy. Well, the only way you can do it is if offline you've previously said, I'm a marketer, here's my list of vendors. I'm doing this I B diligence. I've done it, I review it, and then I say this vendor is okay. Now, Rio, in real time, I can take that signal.
Rio Longacre (39:57.619)
So you're you're are so you're whitelisting you're whitelisting vendors or you're giving the ability to
Richy Glassberg (40:00.696)
No, not whitelisting. It's not white. It's a g I I shouldn't say no to that. Let me say it and you tell me if it's whitelisting. Because if you're a holding company and you got ten clients, they all have different vendors. There's some commonality, that 80 20 rule, right, guys? There's some commonality, but they all have different vendors. You could have a bank, you could have a candy bar, you could have a retailer, you could have an auto. They may look at the same vendor completely differently.
So you can't have one whitelist because the bank may say, I'm not that vendor. And the chocolate bar is like, I sell at a gas station. Fine. So really, guys, you don't have the standard whitelist. But what you do have is you have a software platform that can have those 10 different clients with 10 different regulatory stances with the same hundred vendors say yes, no, yes, no as they want to. And then in the agentic, when you're buying for that client,
Rio Longacre (40:32.211)
Got it.
Richy Glassberg (40:56.29)
In real time, no latency, no cost, because I don't want to put an ad tax anymore into the buying. The agent can now say, Brett, that's the vendor. he's good.
Brett (41:06.085)
Yeah.
Rio Longacre (41:06.419)
Okay, Richie, this is really important. I'm gonna explain this for listeners to a certain extent. Right.
Richy Glassberg (41:09.05)
That's where the agent that's where it that's where it gets really cool, where it works.
Rio Longacre (41:14.353)
Yeah, so it's this is interesting, because I remember when we used to run these C CPA, so right when C CPA passed, I remember we got I get brought in. In fact, one of the credit agencies hired me at one point, right? And like the issue they had was all of these tags in their website. And like people don't realize because of digital marketing, you could have dozens or maybe even hundreds of tags. And like the thing is, and your your former agency or your former market, it could have been some of them could go back years, right? And a lot of these tags are actually firing things, and many of them are passing information, right?
Brett (41:14.787)
But
Rio Longacre (41:41.327)
And and the argument was initially before CCP was, but it's encrypted, right? But but but CCPS doesn't matter if it's cryptid, if it could be traced back to an individual, if it's encrypted, the chain of custody, you still have to be able to perform a DSAR across it and report on who you shared it with and how they're using it. So it was interesting. So we'd have to go through these, all of these tags, see who placed it. And some of them were were not might have been placed years ago, right? Some half of them no one knew who placed them. They're in in the code on the page, they would run every time the page loaded, right? Who placed them?
Richy Glassberg (41:41.657)
Horrible.
Rio Longacre (42:10.887)
Where are they sending information to? What are they sending? And is that company, to your point, is that company a whitelisted or company you'd like you'd want to work with? Are they compliant with CC Bay? So it was really going going through that was super onerous. It sounds like what you're doing is make is automating a lot of that process, Richie.
Richy Glassberg (42:26.886)
So, Rio, now let me argue for the law. We have a whole history of tags on our page that nobody knows what they're doing. I would argue that CCPA, in the instance you just said, has been a fantastic boon to the industry. Every marketer should be doing inventory of all the tags on their page. Everybody, every anybody who's got tags on the page. Why is it here? Am I still using it? And why am I sending data to somewhere I don't know?
The reason the people that are beating the plaintiff's bar on these lawsuits against CIPA is I have a contract, I've done an inventory, I've done an assessment. So guess what? The IAB diligence platform, the IAB wrote a data flow assessment for pixel tracking. So you run that assessment and you run it on every vendor. And then you go to the plaintiff's bar. I have a contract, I've done my inventory, I know where the data's going, and I'm compliant with California. Go take your weeks off somewhere else. To KK Matumbo.
Take that weak sauce somewhere else? Right. But I mean, Rio.
Brett (43:25.967)
Yeah. And so and you and you're and you're doing that exponentially faster than what what Rio as a system integrator back in the day would be. You know, your your project probably took six months, Rio, whereas this might take three weeks.
Richy Glassberg (43:29.986)
Absolutely. But real, why why shouldn't we be doing this? Real, why are there ghost pixels on the page? Why is the data just flying everywhere? So that's a positive benefit. Never happen. Right. Right. So that's a positive benefit of these laws. Totally positive, right?
Rio Longacre (43:40.369)
That's crazy. You're right. It it should never it should never it should it should never have gotten to that point. I just I agree. Like it should never have gotten to that point. They shouldn't have hundreds of tags who yeah.
Brett (43:42.875)
Yeah, but that's Yeah.
Brett (43:52.559)
Yeah. Well and and it back to your argument that that's the regulation that should have been there in the first place so that this couldn't have happened so we didn't ha we wouldn't have to do these audits in this cleanup. Yeah.
Richy Glassberg (43:57.53)
Yeah. Yeah. All right. So Brett and Rio, let's now say this. If you're a marketer and you are worried about your consumers, why are you just why do you have this data hose back here that you don't even know of that's shooting out all the data on your marketers? my God. So let's stop it. Let's stop the madness. If you believe your first party data matters, why in God's name are you sending it out there to
Brett (44:16.482)
Yeah. Yeah.
Brett (44:27.086)
Yeah, is is there this do you think it's an incentives problem or do you think it's a problem that you know i well incentives one, it's a complexity problem. Is it is it a technical expertise problem when it comes to the CMOs?
Richy Glassberg (44:31.781)
I think it's a complexity problem and and we and and yes. And you're in a big organization and the CMO doesn't own the website. She owns the website, but she doesn't own the website because there's there's all these people over here. Real when we started, we we made CNN.com. You made what you made when you were doing the websites. Brett, when you started, we all did. Nobody none of us are making websites now. They're massive organizations that run these
Rio Longacre (44:42.439)
Yep, that's a that's the problem.
Richy Glassberg (44:59.865)
websites that are doing trillions of decisions a second on this. There's tags, there's major retailers with four, five hundred tags. They don't even know what they're doing. They call me up and I I go, okay, you do the inventory, you look for contracts, you run this on all of them. You make a decision. And they come back to me and say, Yeah, we cut half of them out. Great. Good on you. Because by the way, that saves you money, it saves you time, makes your website operate better. These are people you'd be surprised. No downstream. Zero.
Brett (45:24.172)
And and has and has no downstream negative impact on performance, right? Like I think that might be a concern, like, we're gonna lose reach. We're not gonna have audience incremental audience reach.
Richy Glassberg (45:29.657)
Zero. No.
Rio Longacre (45:30.897)
Yeah, the pa the yeah, the page the page the page will load faster, be a better experience too, on top of it all, right? So
Richy Glassberg (45:35.447)
It's like, 'cause you build these systems that are so complex, there's complexity on complexity. It's just look, it's just hygiene. We never thought we had to do pixel hygiene. Now you do. And the laws I think that's a that's a benefit. Totally. Totally, guys.
Brett (45:46.744)
Yep. This is data governance, data hygiene one one and companies big organizations should be required to do that, right? in order to stay compliant, 'cause otherwise
Richy Glassberg (45:56.272)
But you don't have budget, you don't have time, the law made you do it. The law made you do it. That's a good thing, right?
Brett (46:00.195)
Yeah.
So so I think Rio goes back to the argument that that the law is there for a reason. It's not an anti-capitalist socialist takeover move here that y that you might have been suggesting or implying earlier, right? that it's Yes
Rio Longacre (46:03.154)
Yeah. So re
Richy Glassberg (46:09.306)
Yeah, no.
Rio Longacre (46:11.987)
I I'm just I'm just interrogating it, Brett. So okay, but but so but quick So we usually Yeah. So so so Richie, I do have a question. I I wanted to unpack the the concept of consent a little bit. It's come up and I think it's very important. It's coming up more and more as I deal with clients, wor worried about data strategy, customer data strategy, first party data strategy. So
Richy Glassberg (46:17.189)
All right, now wait a second, now we got a host fight.
Brett (46:21.562)
we've known each other for thirty years, we could do that.
Rio Longacre (46:38.365)
Partially because of these laws, partially because of some of the theory architectures that are going on now as people centralize a lot with the data clouds, people really look at no movement kind of architectures, right? That's becoming more of a best practice. So I think consent was was more cut and dried pre-AI, whereas, okay, you're consenting to either like receive emails or not receive emails. Receive personalized communications. Consent was it was more preferences, right? With AI, it's a little broader based, right?
Brett (46:47.629)
Yep.
Rio Longacre (47:05.297)
What are you actually consenting to if your if your information goes into an AI model? Love your thoughts on how consent's changing and like how are you advising clients and what are you hearing about this?
Richy Glassberg (47:16.613)
That's such a hard question, Rio. I mean, that that's an hour. I mean, I think consent's broken. I think we've thought about consent from the beginning the wrong way. If I log into ESPN just to see who's leading on the golf tour and say, do I really need to give consent? When should I give consent? If I just go look at the weather on the weather app, do I really need to give consent? I just want to see what today's weather is.
Brett (47:42.713)
Yeah.
Richy Glassberg (47:44.112)
Did I go in and read an article about Rio and his struggles in minor league baseball and go and do this? That I go two or three pages? Are they then capturing something about me, my segments, what I like, what am I contextual? Maybe is that when the time is to get consent? I think we asked for consent at the wrong time. The next question is why do you need consent? Am I capturing
Brett (48:04.473)
Yeah.
Richy Glassberg (48:12.377)
contextual stuff on Rio. Maybe then I gotta get consent. Maybe that consent is, hey, we're just we're looking at what you're doing, and we may want to capture this because we want to give you better articles about things you like. It's the same thing when you go on a LinkedIn. If you upvote on that, you're gonna keep seeing things like that on LinkedIn. Well they never asked me right there they never asked me for consent. Let's all by the way, let's also talk about the most useless part of privacy. Right here, right now, Rio and Brett.
Brett (48:33.013)
You're training the algorithm.
Richy Glassberg (48:41.849)
The privacy policy. Stupidest, most useless tool in all the privacy. It's a lagging indicator.
Brett (48:45.41)
Yeah, the the the the two thousand words in in seven font that nobody reads and everybody just clicks through because yeah.
Rio Longacre (48:47.645)
Ha ha
Richy Glassberg (48:51.397)
Dude, it just it's it's horrible. It was yesterday's news that nobody reads, that is a lagging indicator, and it probably only covers about 40 to 50 percent of these losses anyway. Okay? So let's just stop. The privacy policy, it's we've destroyed it, it's bastardized. The same as consent, it's just as bad as consent, right? The privacy policy should be hey, we care about you, Richie. If you read our stuff, we're gonna
Brett (49:03.215)
Yeah.
Richy Glassberg (49:19.321)
Use your contextual behavior to serve you better ads. And we're gonna sell that to people so they have better ads for you. If you don't want better ads, tell us and we'll just serve you the s the standard ads. I don't know. We'll do age ads. I I'm I'm just making it up. Yeah. Right. But it's both.
Brett (49:31.96)
Yeah. See something simplify without the simplified without the legaleese, right? And I and I find I find visiting like European sites in England or your just just infuriating because I can't go anywhere
Richy Glassberg (49:43.757)
Dude, have to tell you the thousand data brokers, Brett. And you're looking at this list and going, whatever. You know, I love the fact of transparency, but it it it points up the fact, the stupidity of why is my data going to Premier League soccer when I landed in or go to Bundesliga soccer when I landed in Hamburg a couple weeks ago? Why is it worth to a thousand vendors? It's just stupid. There's no value there. But getting back to your question, Rio.
Brett (50:08.92)
Yeah.
Richy Glassberg (50:11.554)
I think consent has been handled horribly. I think you've got the banner blindness. I think we're asking at the wrong time. I think you couple that with the privacy policy. AI's just gonna make it worse. Now let's talk about the reality of things. If I opt out, if I opt out and I say delete me or forget me, and then and I did that on ESPN, and let's just say it's I don't know. I don't wanna pick on anybody, guys. You you can't put me in a position 'cause
Brett (50:37.006)
Mm-hmm.
Richy Glassberg (50:38.124)
I have to deal I'm neutral and I have to deal with everybody at an industry standard. So right. So I pick an identity provider who has a graph, and that ESPN, that's who I go to, not the identity provider, and I opt out of it. And tomorrow I go to Major League Soccer and they get my consent and they use the same graph. I'm just back in the graph, guys. I'm not oversimplifying this, but this this whole
Brett (50:40.634)
Hey, we're not putting words in your mouth. but yes.
Brett (51:03.449)
Yeah.
Richy Glassberg (51:07.19)
Mousetrap is wrong. This whole Escher scare scare staircase is wrong. You can't get out of it.
Brett (51:12.366)
Yeah. I mean yeah, consent is only an input. It the the organizations have to remain responsible for appropriate data use, but how do you enforce organizations appropriate data use of consumer data?
Rio Longacre (51:18.653)
Yeah.
Rio Longacre (51:22.655)
What how do you enforce it while maintaining privacy too? It's right, like so consent should in theory be more portable, right? It should go with you, right? It should be it should it should be more like it should be broader
Richy Glassberg (51:29.398)
Yeah. What if we had a consent wallet, right? A consent wallet. Something. But the
Brett (51:34.04)
Yeah. Ma and maybe that's built into each one of our consumer agents that we train to say
Richy Glassberg (51:38.969)
But don't forget, we've we've tried wallets before on browsers and they've all failed. None of that's you know, remember when people said, do this and I'll you'll get paid for your advertising, give me your profile. That's all failed. So I I don't know. Here's what I'm worried about. I'm worried about the way you complain to CCPA or some of the other radios, what ad did you see and where? So they're going to me, the advertiser, or Brett, the publisher, but they're missing the messy middle.
The problem isn't the advertiser who placed the ad or ESPN who took the ad, okay? The problem is the eighty companies in the middle that abuse the data. Should they have done it, should they not? And how does the regulator go after them? Cause that's where a lot of the problem is. That's gonna get me in a lot of trouble saying that, but that's just reality.
Brett (52:08.46)
Yeah.
Brett (52:28.757)
Well, no, but the and so so you you you brought up this notion of the middleman, right? And the middleman is where data is going from black box to black box to black box. I mean, does this is that an argument in favor of saying, Hey, why don't we make publisher and advertiser relationships more direct? Right, with the consumer being that third sort of leg on the stool, right? Because that th oftentimes we talk about the buy and the sell side, but we don't talk about the consumer.
Rio Longacre (52:47.933)
Well, but but but yeah well Brett, I think you're bringing up an interesting point, Richie. I think it ties to something you said earlier. So within C C P A, let's say you go to a website and say you sign up for something and you say, you know, I actually don't want to receive any information of this company, but I want to be deleted, right? You can go and request to be deleted. And they have forty-five days to officially delete you and purge you from all of their systems, right? And if you want if you want to know what did they ca capture on you, had they use it, you can c you can request that as well and they have to provide it with you within forty-five days as well, right? that's a D SAR, right?
Richy Glassberg (53:16.078)
That's drop. Yeah, it's great. Yep.
Rio Longacre (53:17.947)
Right. So so the thing is they have 45 days. But Richard, your point about the data brokers. Like you opt out. But let's say you go to another website and you opt in to something very similar, right? There's a good chance that brand, because using the same identity graph, could actually catch you again because your permissions are not and your preferences are not portable necessarily with you. Right. You're just you're just you're you're just a record there, right? So so I actually had clients like who w when the law passed, I remember law firms were f were sending people out saying, go to this pharma's
Richy Glassberg (53:27.682)
Yeah.
Rio Longacre (53:47.837)
Facebook page, sign up, say you have this disease, the next day unsubscribe if forty six days later you're still getting advertising. We're gonna sue them. Then you they they could request an extension ninety, but they have to request it. So it's very hard to comply with these laws because of the way ad tech is built.
Richy Glassberg (53:57.412)
Yeah.
So so okay, so let's let now let's let's talk positive, let's talk solutions. Here's I'll give you a solution to this. One, use a system, any system, mine or or you do it on a spreadsheet. And actually as the advertiser, don't work with anybody who won't fill out the assessment and attest that what they're doing is right. We don't have marketers in the old days.
Brett (54:04.28)
Well
Brett (54:25.656)
Yeah.
Richy Glassberg (54:30.466)
When I was selling ads, if I screwed up an ad and I blew a TBS movie of the week, the head of gray advertising on Thursday morning, if the spot didn't run, would scream bloody murder at me, and he, she, or it would make five make good, five make goods the next day. The advertiser, for some reason, has
Brett (54:53.591)
Yeah.
Richy Glassberg (54:59.626)
Lost the mythical power that they used to have. If I was a marketer, Rio, I would say to a marketer, use the IB diligence platform. If you don't want to use the IB diligence platform, have your law firm write an assessment, send it out on a PDF and get somebody to send it back as part of the contract. And do not work with anybody. Do not work with anybody who will not attest that what they're doing is true and valid. And then when the regulator comes and you find out who it was, you say, you
Brett (55:16.973)
Yeah. It's gotta be incorporated into the c contract, yeah.
Richy Glassberg (55:29.356)
You you attested that it was true and valid. There's an accountability. You can't do work with any bank in America technically unless you are fully accountable. I'm not talking about advertising. I'm talking about, you know, providing door locks or card keys or this, that, and the other. The level of security at a bank, that's why our first customer was the second biggest bank in America, because they took it seriously. It what happened was we built the company, it was helping a company get compliant.
Brett (55:29.591)
Yep. There's an accountability trail. Yeah.
Richy Glassberg (55:56.726)
And at CES, right before the pandemic in 2000, 2020, excuse me, the second largest bank in America NDA'd me up, pulled me in a private meeting and said, We got a problem. We paid a law firm, we wrote this thing, we had the 24-year-olds at our holding company, send out 5,000, we got 12 back. And they said, Help this. And for 14 months, I worked with the second biggest bank in America, building a automated TPRM and getting it off spreadsheets.
Today, today in twenty twenty six, people still do InfoSec on spreadsheets. It's it's moronic. We have automated this whole thing where you do it once, you can share it multiple times with standards, but what's not happening is every marketer isn't saying, I will not work with you unless you prove this. And there's a lot of people in ad tech who are like, no, here's my privacy policy. I don't want to do this. The law says you have to do this, this is changing.
Brett (56:51.158)
Yeah.
Richy Glassberg (56:53.779)
Marketers need to step up. Marketers need to realize that after a hundred years, the advertising market is now as heavily regulated as the banking market is. And that they need to hold this mythological ad tech stack that sits here and goes, I'm a good guy. I'm the most transparent one, but won't do anything other than send you a paragraph and say, We will not fill out any assessment. Here's our paragraph and here's our public privacy policy. You know what? That time has passed.
The time for trust is past. That's crap. You either have to legally say you're responsible or not, because now we got laws and people are refusing to realize that we're in a regulated environment today.
Rio Longacre (57:26.931)
Okay.
Rio Longacre (57:36.593)
Yeah, so Richie, it's interesting. I like a couple points you made I really like. So I think number one would be in like the the laws themselves. So looking at privacy laws, I think I think they've generally been well intended. I think some of the imp some of the implications, some of the impacts have not been great. I think it's been worse for consumer experience. I don't know how much has actually protected people. I think there have been some good, some good downstream outcomes. Like the, you know, people cleaning up their tags, some of the really shady data brokers being targeted.
I mean, there some terrible practices in this industry. So I think some of those really like black hat characters, the fact that they've been some of them have been put out of business is a good thing. So I think AI laws, it's still too early to say jury is still out, is I guess my my assessment. But from what I've seen so far, these are mostly laws because there's a lot of bad PR for the industry right now, they're mostly laws just trying to punish people and target people.
And like and actually like we don't need some of these laws, but right the the Colorado law, like they they amended it, it was so bad. It was basically you criminalized disparate outcomes from for the model maker or the engineer using it, right? For the so it was like so so if you if you're if you you could prove disparate outcomes, you it they might be valid disparate outcomes, but as long as you could prove them initially in the law, there were unspecified penalties. So they did amend the law in all fairness. We had someone on this pod, Richie, a couple of months ago from C Boulder talking about it.
Richy Glassberg (58:57.037)
Yeah. Yeah.
Rio Longacre (58:59.827)
So I think they're getting a little better, but generally speaking, I think a lot of this is just the backlash against tech.
Brett (59:04.961)
Yeah, well
Richy Glassberg (59:05.655)
I agree with you. And I think I think the laws are imperfect, but what I'm gonna say to you is they're getting better. What they're doing is they're harmonizing. California has amended their law and gotten it better. California has dropped. Connecticut continues to right. Colorado, look, you said it. They saw the mistake and they fixed it. Connecticut has a bunch of amendments. So does Delaware's got some big ones coming. They're actually trying to harmonize and they're trying to get all the states
Rio Longacre (59:18.363)
It's better.
Brett (59:18.902)
Yeah, Colorado's gotten better. Yep.
Richy Glassberg (59:35.455)
in line on a lot of the things that they all agree on to make it easier. Now, I don't believe we're gonna have a federal law in my lifetime. I I don't think they can decide what a ham sandwich is in well let me change that. We will not have a comprehensive privacy law anytime in our lifetime. It's too easy for these old people in Congress who don't understand tech to write a law about kids that say, we got to protect the kids. It'll be bad. They'll do it. Kids do need protection online. I'm not saying that. They just don't know how to do anything else.
Rio Longacre (59:44.979)
Anytime soon.
Brett (01:00:02.294)
Yeah, it'll be a blunt instrument, yeah.
Richy Glassberg (01:00:04.524)
They just don't know how to do it right. Like, let's have every kid register. great. We have a database of kids. That's the stupidest idea of all time. But, you know, they'll pass a kid's law, but they can't, they can't pass decide what a ham sandwich is in Washington, so they're not going to pass a comprehensive privacy law. What you're going to see is the 24 states are all going to harmonize. There'll still be California. They're all going to harmonize. And as every new state like Louisiana just passed the law, it looks like the other ones of its ilk. So they're all harmonizing.
Brett (01:00:32.108)
Yeah.
Richy Glassberg (01:00:33.568)
So they weren't they're not perfect, but with the legislative process, they can they can amend them and get things closer together. I
Rio Longacre (01:00:41.907)
But one argument, Richie, about the outcome for these laws, sorry to interrupt, has been like they they they've generally favored the the big the big platforms in the Wild Gardens. Like they can pay they can afford to pay the fines, they can afford to deal with compliance costs and and it and it's made people more cautious. It's eliminated some shady characters. But one argument against these laws is this actually impacted the big platforms, so you could argue probably the biggest offenders.
Richy Glassberg (01:00:45.516)
No no.
Brett (01:00:49.933)
Yeah.
Brett (01:01:01.954)
Sm
Richy Glassberg (01:01:05.442)
Can't argue with you. I mean, you know, yeah, it's it's hard. What you're saying is it's it's everybody else who has to deal with it. The cost is disproportionate on them, is your point. And I agree with you. There is a problem, and the open internet is under attack right now. And I think that that's I'm very worried about that. I don't have a a better answer for you, Rio. I'm very worried about. Look, I a long time ago when I was doing my work work.
Brett (01:01:06.378)
No, no, no, it's harmed it's harmed the small organizations, right? The smaller startups that
Richy Glassberg (01:01:34.549)
My older sister got breast cancer. It was very bad. Thankfully, she lived and everything's great. But I helped a woman named Dr. Marisa Weiss, who wrote a book, Living Beyond Breast Cancer, found breast cancer.org. Helped her build it, helped her start it, ran, was on the board for 22 years, did their revenue, did the largest fundraiser in New York, the Boleth on every media company, blah, blah, blah. Never got paid a dime, never wanted a dime.
Built this thing that helps 23 million women, not American women, women around the world every year. It's the largest single peer-reviewed information, it's the largest information site for women with breast cancer in the world. Why did I do that? One, because I really believe the internet was a fundamental changer that democratized information and made it available to everybody. And breast cancer.org is a great example of it. It's the best thing I've I've done in my work life.
Right? It's better than anything else I've ever done. And I, you know, after 22 years, time to, you know, that's good governance. And there's 23 million women around the world every year who have no idea who I am. But Marissa Weiss, the team, Hopewell, the CEO, the team, we built an amazing thing. I am worried that that's under threat. I am worried that the ability for breast cancer.orgs and the open internet to thrive and survive is gonna go away.
And that worries me greatly. What worries me greatly is the internet is supposed to be this democratized thing. Like I like Leicester City and I like Forest, you know. I want to go to their websites. They're not going to be able to afford to do that. I want to go to the fan website of Leicester City and understand not what the team is telling me what's really happening. Or Forest. I'm just using those examples to make fun of myself. That ability for the open internet to thrive, I think, is
Brett (01:03:26.688)
And and and to moneti and to monetize their their content is is a challenge.
Richy Glassberg (01:03:27.624)
is under threat. Yeah, to be able to monetize. I think it's under tremendous threat out there. And if all we have is a couple of walled gardens, that sucks. That sucks.
Brett (01:03:37.344)
Yeah. Well and and yeah, and we and we've just seen a proliferation of the number of things you need to subscribe to to get access to anything, right? whether it's news content, right, and so and it's becoming more expensive for consumers to get access to the content that they want because so much of it is behind a paywall, which is what they're doing. Yeah. What they're doing to monetize and stay stay to to keep afloat.
Rio Longacre (01:03:51.485)
Yeah, yeah.
Richy Glassberg (01:03:53.269)
It's it's horrible. It's horrible. How how is the
Rio Longacre (01:03:58.747)
Yeah, yeah, I I for monetization, I don't see much of a future for open web. I there will be a logged in or kind of cur like a credentialized, like authenticated web, right where you give your email. I I think that'll survive and that you'll be able to monetize out to a certain extent. But just a true open web, I mean I the the privacy laws aren't helping, I'll tell you that.
Richy Glassberg (01:04:03.392)
I don't.
Brett (01:04:14.966)
Yeah.
Richy Glassberg (01:04:15.54)
No. And part of the problem is we have so much disinformation out there. And what's credible information? The reason we built breastcancer.org was you don't want to go to a subreddit, not make a fun of Reddit that says, just put witch hazel on it and you'll, you know, take some Ivermeckin and you'll be better. No. No. Right, right. You don't you wanna what I'm saying is real information is a premium and a priority, and I'm terrified.
Rio Longacre (01:04:33.683)
Yeah, you'll get crap like that on Reddit, yeah.
Brett (01:04:35.009)
Yeah.
Richy Glassberg (01:04:43.734)
That it's gonna be very bad for society, the ability and what AI is gonna make fake content faster than you and I. They've they've done libraries while the time we've been doing this for a hour and four minutes. AI has come up with libraries of fake content. And how is the average person gonna be able to deal with this, guys?
Brett (01:05:01.633)
We've g gotta be able to distinguish yeah, distinguish this yeah, and we've we had conversations with Vanessa Otero of Adventist Media, obviously Lu Pascalis, who've been talking yeah, the the dearth of good quality investigative journalism.
Richy Glassberg (01:05:09.184)
Yeah. She's great what she's doing. Right.
Richy Glassberg (01:05:15.66)
Guys, we built breast cancer.org because you go to the doctor, she tells you about breast cancer, you go home, everybody cries, you go everybody goes to sleep at three in the morning, you sit bolt upright. And this is again 1999. You go to the computer and you go to Google and you type in breast cancer.org, and the first thing you get is breast cancer.org. That was what we wanted to do. Now you're gonna get some AI thing, and who knows the provenance of that? Who knows the data on that? And you may hurt yourself. And that is really upsetting to me.
Brett (01:05:38.71)
Yeah.
Richy Glassberg (01:05:45.482)
And the future of my kids and society, that AI, that's where I'm worried about AI. It's not the privacy laws, it's the fact that it's uncontrolled.
Rio Longacre (01:05:45.651)
Pop
Rio Longacre (01:05:51.571)
Well Richie, Rich Well Richie, not as not only is there like uncontrolled face fake content going to be created, already is being created, more content is being now created by AIs than people. I think we reached that tipping point about six months ago. But I think what's interesting is you look at the web traffic. So okay, the content so th I three points. Number one, more more fake traffic than real. Number two, the content that's created, whether it's fake or real, is being used to trained.
Brett (01:06:04.5)
Yep.
Rio Longacre (01:06:17.991)
the the the you know the the a AI and like the third the third point is traffic on websites, right? So you talked about monetization. I there's just like Jonathan Barnes, he's a friend of the pod. We interviewed him at I think it was Ad Week last year, Brett. He he pu he tweeted this yesterday. A publisher he's working with saw saw two hundred and fourteen bot page loads for every one human on the site. so they were
Brett (01:06:18.124)
Yeah.
Richy Glassberg (01:06:18.187)
Yeah. So yeah.
Brett (01:06:30.838)
Yeah.
Rio Longacre (01:06:43.645)
They were apparently only showing around five hundred actual real human visitors per day and they were showing literally thousands and and tens of thousands and millions of bots visiting. This is like the that is the open web today.
Richy Glassberg (01:06:49.217)
So real, let's play that out.
Brett (01:06:56.266)
Yeah.
Richy Glassberg (01:06:56.369)
So real, let's play it out first. If I'm not a friend of the pod after this hour and six minutes, I'm really I'm gonna cry, guys. Second of all, guys, garbage in, garbage out, that's been algorithm forever. If there's no open web, there's nothing for the ALMs, if it's all trash and if it's all made up, then then what do we got? If the answer is trash made on trash, then all you've got is trash, guys. Let's get real here.
Brett (01:07:00.64)
Yeah.
Rio Longacre (01:07:01.437)
Yeah.
Rio Longacre (01:07:13.939)
Yep. What are they gonna train on?
Brett (01:07:16.042)
Yeah.
Richy Glassberg (01:07:22.589)
If there isn't a real article about Rio and his struggles in minor league baseball, there's nothing for the LLM to trade in. I'm just making fun. I I didn't know if you struggled in minor league baseball, Rio. But you know what I mean? Yeah, I c I couldn't hit a curve buff. Yeah. Right. But my point is, if we lose the open internet, what is the what are these LLMs training on? And all these people going to AI for answers, your answers are crap. It's all built on a house of cards, guys.
Brett (01:07:30.39)
Yeah.
Rio Longacre (01:07:33.147)
I I couldn't hit a fastball, Richie.
Brett (01:07:36.063)
Let alone a slider or a curveball. Right. No, and it and if you
Rio Longacre (01:07:37.252)
Yeah.
Brett (01:07:49.877)
Yeah, yeah, no for sure. Right bec yeah, because of a lot of this content's b
Richy Glassberg (01:07:50.806)
So these these things so the AI guys can't just destroy the open internet and not give revenue. Now I'm not smart enough to figure it out, but they've gotta figure this out and the AI companies can't just keep raising hundreds of billions of dollars to train on something that's dead.
Brett (01:08:05.579)
Yeah. And if and a lot of this content is behind a paywall, it's behind a subscription base and is is is invisible to the L LMs without, you know, something kind of beating around the the right. They could do c yeah, they could do content relationship.
Rio Longacre (01:08:14.547)
Well well w well they could they could do content they you could have a co go to content marketplaces which haven't worked out or they c or they could do syndication of content, you know.
Brett (01:08:21.631)
Yeah, you know, but point being is it's training on and we and I did some research on this with with chat GPT, perplexity and where they're sourcing most of their information. And I think at the when I did this about a year and a half ago, GPT was sourcing like fifty percent of their total information from Reddit. Right? And and it was Reddit and Wikipedia were the dominant sources, right? Lord help us, and so and so consumers lose trust
Richy Glassberg (01:08:39.583)
And they're well, right. Yeah.
Rio Longacre (01:08:40.349)
L Lord help us.
Brett (01:08:46.347)
With L LMs because they're like, Well, where's the source of this information? Right. And you can you can click into the sources.
Richy Glassberg (01:08:50.411)
So let's let's talk about privacy then. So let's talk about the trust of the of the does everybody who uses Reddit know that their data was being sold as training? Did they disclose it? If they did in the privacy policy, did anyone bother to read it? Does anybody know that? And you're telling me the algorithm doesn't know Rio dot longacre on Reddit, minor league baseball subreddit, and you're in there in the in the LLM and it's just it's like the big vacuum hoov everything out there.
Brett (01:09:04.811)
Yeah.
Brett (01:09:18.623)
Yeah. Everybody know that Reddit cited agreement, but nobody knows how their data and information's being used. So so from a
Richy Glassberg (01:09:23.935)
You don't know how your information's being used. You don't know what's going on. Yeah. Look. Right. So they made so the question is, what do we as consumers have? We have our reputation. We have us. We have ourselves. We have our being. We have the essence of who we are. We have our communities. And I think I think we need
Rio Longacre (01:09:27.125)
it's being used all right. It's being used. I mean they they they're giving it all. I mean that was that was the deal, right?
Brett (01:09:44.191)
Our communities.
Richy Glassberg (01:09:53.429)
I I think we need better privacy laws. I think they're well intentioned, but I think they need to be restructured a little bit about really protecting me, Richie, you know, my family, my my kids, my friends or kids, all of us. I really worry about the next generation. I spend a lot of time worrying about how work is going to be done and how advertising's gonna be done. If it's just an agent going to buy for you.
Look, I don't know if it's gonna be good or not, but let's rewind it. Before the internet, if you wanted to take a trip, you called a travel agent or you called a friend. Now you go to tripadvisor dot com or whatever, there's a million sites. Is it right, is it gonna go to that the agent does it for you? I don't know, right?
Brett (01:10:32.693)
Yeah.
Brett (01:10:37.652)
Yeah. And you can kinda make the argument
Brett (01:10:43.26)
Yeah, yeah. And and then you can make the argument it's like before the internet, but then there's before social media, you know, and my teenage kids talk about this, Ryan and I talk about this all the time. Is that they feel their attention and we've we know it and how it how you actually architect these solutions, how the algorithms are gaming people's attention. They're they're
Richy Glassberg (01:10:48.613)
yeah yeah. Yeah.
Richy Glassberg (01:10:59.049)
Right. So think about it. It took like thirty years to to really fundamentally change society with the internet. Is that fair, guys? Fundamentally changed. Right? About thirty years. You know, I I I don't even blink about buying, you know, bed frames and a mattress and a this and a that and doing it, right? And go in a wire cutter and get the recommendations and great, love it. A AI is not gonna take thirty years. AI may take seven years, may take five, may take ten.
Brett (01:11:05.643)
Yeah.
Rio Longacre (01:11:06.973)
Got thirty, yeah.
Brett (01:11:25.877)
Yeah.
Richy Glassberg (01:11:28.981)
But what the implications are, nobody knows. We t don't believe anybody. There was not any futurist in nineteen ninety five or ninety six that predicted what the internet was gonna be. It's all bullshit. But then where does it go?
Rio Longacre (01:11:39.303)
Well well yeah, that's Rich. It's interesting. So so we talked about this on a previous episode, we talked about the effect of these technologies on society. So we looked at, you know, like we were actually talking about history. You look at the rise of the rise of fascism and the rise of some of those total and totalitarian mass movements which came out like in the what the twenties and thirties and forties, right? So it was around the time that radio and mass media really became a thing, right? And there's no way they would have come to power.
Brett (01:11:39.956)
Yeah.
Rio Longacre (01:12:07.485)
without the ability of these technologies to to to to spread their message and spread their propaganda, right? So and I think it takes society, I mean I think the conclusion we came to in an episode was like it takes society a certain amount of time to adapt these technologies. So I think that we've gone through the rise of the internet. I think social media was definitely a you know that's definitely changed society. The smartphone has changed society. Now we have AI. It's just been one after another after another for e every few years. I it'll take longer than people think.
Brett (01:12:27.381)
Yeah.
Brett (01:12:36.542)
And our institutions are struggling to keep up, right? And our and our laws haven't kept up.
Rio Longacre (01:12:38.747)
Our laws haven't kept up, our institutions and our culture hasn't kept up.
Richy Glassberg (01:12:39.328)
So let me so let me ask you a question. Okay, guys, let me ask you a question. Let's go back to privacy one on one. Where do privacy come from? Do we have a right to privacy in the Constitution, in the Bill of Rights? Yes or no? No, you don't. You do not. Nope. Look, I'm not a lawyer. You do not. All right, guys, you do not. All right, guys, I'm I'm not a lawyer for all our listeners out there. I'm directionally right. I may miss a couple facts. So just calm down.
Rio Longacre (01:12:52.115)
We have we have a re we have a right to privacy, we do. Isn't it?
Brett (01:12:52.18)
Yeah. Well Yeah. No.
Yeah, I was try I was trying to think back to any language.
Rio Longacre (01:12:58.568)
Wasn't that
Richy Glassberg (01:13:08.512)
Please, don't roast me. All right. We do not have the right to privacy in our country. You do have a right to privacy in the EU union. Stop. Stop. In the EU union, you have a right to privacy. We do not have a right to privacy in this country. Where did privacy come in this country? It came because of technology. You want the quick history lesson? It came with a Louis Brandeis, the most famous Harvard Law Review article written by Louis Brandeis and another gentleman. And I just don't want to screw this whole thing up.
Brett (01:13:09.099)
Ha ha
Brett (01:13:14.436)
To life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness.
Richy Glassberg (01:13:38.121)
And it came about because of the rise in technology of newspapers, and that newspapers could all of a sudden have pictures. And Louis Brandeis had a brother who may or may not have been gay and was in the gossip columns, and the pictures were taken because they were publishing papers in the morning and the afternoon. It was the change in technology. Exactly what you're talking about, the twenties. Again, guys, I'm directional for all the listeners out there. Wait.
Rio Longacre (01:14:04.551)
Well but yeah, but this but this came out of liberty, right? Is I guess the point. It came out of your your your liberty with the and that was the extrapolation.
Richy Glassberg (01:14:07.25)
No, no, it came out of the right to privacy. No, it came out of the right to privacy. Does my brother, do I have the right to privacy not to be put in and to be talked about? And then that right to privacy was tied into the 14th Amendment. So all of this was done because of technology. Technology changed. Right. So the the the techno I'm just tying this back to technology, guys.
Rio Longacre (01:14:27.443)
Which is due process, right? Fourteenth fourteenth Amendment, Liberty Okay, make makes sense.
Brett (01:14:30.237)
Yeah.
Richy Glassberg (01:14:36.03)
Technology changed greatly. The rise of newspapers and the ability to put pictures in newspapers created Louis Brandeis writing this article, which was the Harvard Law Review on the right to privacy. That then led to everything we have down there, but we do not have a fundamental right to privacy in our constitution. So we're different. And because we don't have the right to privacy, everything stems from this Harvard Law Review article.
But every th every time we have a new leap forward of technology, we fight this fight on privacy again. That's the whole point I'm trying to make, Rio.
Rio Longacre (01:15:08.651)
Right, right. So so s so we if we if we have the right to liberty and we have the right to due process and equal protections, I think that's that's really where privacy came out of. You know, those three things kinda like and then you're but you're right, it's not in the it's not in the constitution itself. Like how do you but then but then how do you how do you create legislation out of that?
Richy Glassberg (01:15:20.456)
It's not. We don't have a right to privacy. If you look at GDPR, they have a right to privacy. So the human rights are part of it. We don't have the right to privacy, which is why one of the reasons some lawyers will argue we can't have a federal law because you don't have that right. So now you have states laws that are taking the space of that. By the way, let's also look at breach laws. We don't have a federal breach law. We have 50 state breach laws. Okay, you know, there's a
cabal of people who want a s a federal privacy law and there are lawyers and lobbyists that get paid to say they want a private a federal privacy law in Washington. Great, have at it. Keep fighting, guys.
Rio Longacre (01:15:58.099)
Well we c we could pay we could pass it but then it would be challenged and it would go to Supreme Court probably to see if it's constitutional and pr i if since it's not in the constitution it w it could be itself it it could be challenged for sure.
Richy Glassberg (01:16:02.287)
Right. Yeah. It's not. Right. So there's people that argue that, Rio. Again, I'm not a lawyer. I'm just directionally. So, but my point is every leap forward in technology challenges our privacy. This is not the first time we've had this privacy conversation. It started with Louis Brandeis in the eighteen nineties. It started then. And then to your point, Rio, in the twenties when we had the rise of radio and everything else, then you had
Author you had the America first and authoritarianism and Nazism and fascism. And they used Goebbels was a master at using mass media to get a message out. Right. Right. And then you go to the internet, and my point is it's just a step change forward. And now with AI, it's gonna 30 years, you know, four twenty years, thirty years, fifty years, thirty years. This is gonna happen in five years. So
Rio Longacre (01:16:39.495)
They were masters, yeah. The n the Nazis especially were masters at this, yeah.
Brett (01:16:58.654)
Yeah.
Richy Glassberg (01:16:59.463)
I'm coming a long way to say every step change we have in technology forces the privacy conversation again. And we're having the privacy conversation at the end of the internet era when we should have had it twenty years ago. We should have had it before we built these systems that you can't make privacy compliant. That's my point, guys.
Brett (01:17:12.689)
At the beginning. Yeah, yeah.
Rio Longacre (01:17:19.769)
But it's interesting about about the e about the EU have so the EU constitution ha they don't have a constitution, but like the the the they have regulation about privacy but it's interesting, there's no word for privacy in French. They have V privé, which is private life, but there's actually no word like there's no equivalent for the word privacy, which I think is fine.
Brett (01:17:20.029)
And
Richy Glassberg (01:17:24.211)
Well though, yeah.
Richy Glassberg (01:17:34.986)
So my point to you guys is we should have done this twenty years ago. We didn't. There wasn't whatever, we didn't understand what the algorithms were doing. We have these laws now. I think they're too late, but can they be the right laws if we can actually get real enforcement? And I will argue again, these laws are against advertising. If every advertiser got behind making sure that everybody in the chain was compliant.
I think that would change everything. And I think that would does that mean there's gotta be a lot of technical change in a lot of companies? Absolutely. Is there gonna be pain? Absolutely. But they're all you know, you're getting with if the open internet dies, all that Luma chart, there's no place for them to go 'cause there's nobody to serve.
Rio Longacre (01:18:21.139)
How much but Birchie, how much of this is just bad communications, bad PR, right? I mean, yeah, the w the worst they the worst abusers, the worst excesses, those should be weeded out. I I don't disagree. And there has been a lot of that, right? But but generally speaking, I think a lot of like it's it comes in a value exchange, right? I remember I told this story in a previous podcast with my mom where she had her Android phone and she wasn't authenticated into Google Maps and I couldn't remember where she was going, right? And I showed her like mom, just log in. You can favorite all these places you go.
It can navigate you there. It's you it's gonna be a better experience. And she's I'm gonna give Google those information to mom like they already know who you are. You have an Android phone, right? So don't worry about it. Have like it like g tell them where you are, log in, you'll have a better experience. And she she said this it's much better. I love the phone more now. So how much of it's just value exchange and like communicating that value exchange?
Richy Glassberg (01:18:53.757)
have it anyway. Yeah.
Brett (01:18:54.931)
Yeah.
Richy Glassberg (01:19:06.653)
I think all of it is. I think all of it is. I think like when I go talk to grad schools or undergrads and I I talk about privacy, I talk about where you share your data. I freely admit it. I'm an old guy. I want to know where I can find a rest stop. I give Google everything. I you know, I trust Google, they have all my information. I I have G Suite for my companies. I pay for it. I do the paid versions of everything. I
I wanna, if I'm in the car and I want to find, you know, the closest Popeyes to have a chicken sandwich, Google tells me that. Or if I want to find, you know, the Tim Hortons or whatever I want, I trust Google. Do I trust other people? Do I give places where I just go to get scores for something my data? No. I think all of it is a value exchange. I am not on a lot of social media because I don't get the value exchange from social media. I'm a little bit of a hypocrite because I'm a little bit on Insta.
Brett (01:20:00.52)
Yeah. Well and there's and there's just there's no transparency as to yeah
Richy Glassberg (01:20:04.041)
But my Instagram is only my family, but I'm not on any other social media. And I don't I make a choice, but I think the the the regular consumer in the world doesn't know that if they're not paying for something they're the product. And I think that's a problem. Rio, I think it's a problem.
Brett (01:20:20.137)
Yeah. Well, and they don't understand the word egg yeah, they don't understand the word exchange in in that term value exchange. You know, val you value exchange, but what am I exchanging and where is it going? And there's it's almost impossible to educate the consumer as to where all of your data is going, how it's being used. So so from a consumer standpoint, the concept of value exchange, other than maybe relevant ads, less annoying advertising, c you know, content that's catered to my interests, d is kind of meaningless.
Richy Glassberg (01:20:28.606)
No.
Brett (01:20:50.109)
Right, that's like a that's an industry term because what does a consumer understand about this exchange? They don't understand anything about the exchange.
Richy Glassberg (01:20:50.472)
I agree.
Richy Glassberg (01:20:56.105)
So there's part of me, and I don't mean to sound like the old guy get off my lawn. I feel like we've lost great creative, right? It has there been a campaign in the last five years that you could say, you know, where's my beef? You know, where you know, the heartbeat
Brett (01:21:11.133)
Yeah, yeah. Ba back to your point your earlier point about serendipity, right? When you when you get when you're exposed yeah.
Richy Glassberg (01:21:15.177)
Well, where where's the heartbeat of America? The heartbeat of America was one of the greatest terrible. Terrible. Terrible. No. No. No. Where's where's you know the the I really want to aspire to that brand? I mean, you know, they're not everything I know we're a consumer society. You don't buy everything every day.
Rio Longacre (01:21:18.215)
The Superbowl Super Bowl lads are t are terrible now. They're absolutely terrible. I I hate like they're they're they're the worst like I I thought it was just me. It's like these are the worst they're all about like potty jokes. They're terrible, right? These are not even darn funny.
Brett (01:21:35.562)
Yeah.
Richy Glassberg (01:21:43.773)
Right? You know, and it's I mean we've we I think we've lost the thread in advertising. I think we've lost the greatness of everything. And I think people want it. I think people want it. I think people yearn for they want good creative. They they want they want to be told a story. We've been a story driven society since the first campfire, you know, a million years ago.
Brett (01:21:48.873)
Yeah. It it w was that a big a Yeah.
Brett (01:21:57.801)
Yeah.
It it
Yeah.
If I'm gonna be exposed to advertising, I wanna be entertained. I wanna be I wanna be delighted, write something like that. And people typically say, I hate advertising or people hate ads. And and part of it, I think, the the driving trend there is that that there was just push towards everything was performance marketing. Everything was down funnel performance marketing.
Richy Glassberg (01:22:14.215)
Mm-hmm.
Richy Glassberg (01:22:21.326)
All right. Okay. Guys, it's it's the three of us. We'll pretend nobody's listening to us. I re watched I'm a nerd this spring, it was the fifteenth, whatever anniversary of Game of Thrones. I sat over three weeks, I watched every episode. I'm such a nerd. 'Cause I hadn't watched the last episode and I realized because I traveled all the time and I was so mad about the Yeah, yeah, I agree. I agree. Right.
Rio Longacre (01:22:42.46)
Last season's pretty last season's pretty bad, but like but but but up until then it's great, yeah.
Brett (01:22:42.652)
Yeah. Yeah. They they rush they rushed the ending, that's for sure.
Richy Glassberg (01:22:47.696)
Yeah. And by the way, George Martin needed an editor, but the l I never the last episode I was on a plane. I said, nobody tell me. And then the whole worldwide outcry was such a bad episode, I never saw it. So I went back and re-watched it. So okay, I'm in a logged in state. I am paying for this service. You know exactly who I am. When I log in, it says, Who is this? Richie? My wife's name, I'm not gonna say the kids say no, it is me. You know exactly who I am. And I'm gonna say this and I hope the CMO calls me.
If I'm the CMO of bookings.com, I am screaming at my agency because I would watch three hours a night. I saw ten, twelve, thirteen b bookings.com in the same ads. I am so tired of the lie that CTV is the future of television and it's all sold out. You better get in the upfront because I'm seeing the same ad over and over and over, over and over.
Rio Longacre (01:23:38.44)
And and they they can't they they they well they can't they can't figure out frequency caps and they can't and they can't see can't clearly can't even sell their
Brett (01:23:38.98)
Over and over again.
Richy Glassberg (01:23:43.927)
and then they lie on stage and say, on an hourly basis we have frequency caps. It's such bullshit. If I was that CMO, and I'm sorry, I wish she would call me, I would call my agency and I would kill I'll give you the logs. I had a yellow legal pad. I I wrote down how many times I saw this. I was so mad. It's horrible. This is real horrible.
Brett (01:23:58.492)
Yeah.
Brett (01:24:02.044)
Yeah. Yeah. it's it's absolutely
Rio Longacre (01:24:03.764)
Well, a lot of a lot of the inventory is not going is going unsold because they can f not because there's no demand, but they can't Yeah.
Richy Glassberg (01:24:07.238)
And they're all standing up on their upfront stages, C T V is the greatest thing in the world. And my CTV, they can't figure out how to make this work. The fallacy is the television ad server was one to many. The Google ad server, which is a marvel and it's freaking awesome, is one to one. And they haven't figured out to understand that I'm Rio or I'm Richie and I'm sitting down to watch three hours. Just sell me the bookings one.
Brett (01:24:16.819)
Yeah.
Brett (01:24:27.518)
Yeah.
Yeah the
Richy Glassberg (01:24:35.118)
Once an hour and find something else. So all it tells me as a media guy forever, they haven't sold this shit. They haven't sold any of it if they're just setting me the same end.
Brett (01:24:40.968)
Yeah, totally. Yeah, totally. And you and to your point, YouTube advertising so I find a lot more effective. I never see a repeat ad.
Richy Glassberg (01:24:47.486)
Of course it is 'cause it's on the U two app server. Yeah, you're a hundred percent right.
Brett (01:24:50.322)
Yeah. And and yet all of these other prime all these other channels I'm I I just get the same ads again and and again.
Richy Glassberg (01:24:58.339)
it's just I'm not gonna talk anybody else 'cause I don't really watch TV, but I I'm a nerd and I rewatch Game of Thrones. And you're right, Rio. The last the last year was kind of a waste, but you know.
Brett (01:25:08.338)
Yeah, I I watched all of Mad Men recently, right? Speaking of the the the y well you you're talking a lot about serendipity and the and the power of good advertising, and it's all built on that. The the the advent of television advertising. And it's interesting we
Rio Longacre (01:25:09.002)
Well what
Richy Glassberg (01:25:11.454)
Yeah, I've never seen that. No, no, no. Yeah, yeah.
Rio Longacre (01:25:18.132)
So good.
Richy Glassberg (01:25:19.784)
So good. Yeah. Yeah. It's funny. I've been in television for forty years. I don't really watch TV. I'm terrible. I read books. I watch movies.
Rio Longacre (01:25:26.356)
Well but b but about twenty and by the by the way, I I just looked it up. About twenty five to thirty percent of all C T V inventory, premium inventory, real C T V, right? It's like I'm we're not talking like below the fold, like auto up autoplay, like it premium goes twenty five to thirty percent goes unsold currently, which is freaking wild. just because they they they can't sell it.
Richy Glassberg (01:25:36.786)
Yeah. Yeah.
Brett (01:25:36.893)
Yeah.
Brett (01:25:41.778)
Yeah, yeah.
Richy Glassberg (01:25:43.356)
Rio. And and that's a th think about it. In a logged in state, I should get great advertising. Think about it. If I pay I I pay for Prime because I'm an Amazon Prime person. I perfect. I watch the NFL. I watch soccer. And I see the NFL Prime game. They do a great job, great production values. I should really get good ads. They know who I am. They know exactly who I am. They know my address.
Rio Longacre (01:25:50.738)
High CPMs, yeah, you you
Brett (01:25:54.644)
Yeah. It's the definition of personalization.
Richy Glassberg (01:26:12.252)
They deliver there enough times. They should be able to right. A marketer should be able to say, exact I should get great ads. It's not I'm not blaming them because I think it's everybody. I don't think the agencies have figured out CTV yet. I don't think the marketers have figured out CTV yet. I don't think the ad servers have figured it out yet. But I believe in advertising and I believe it should get better. I believe in a logged in state, I should get great stuff. And part of that, part of that.
Rio Longacre (01:26:14.44)
They know what you buy, right?
Richy Glassberg (01:26:42.046)
should be, hey, look, Richie's a unfortunately 60 plus guy who lives in the Northeast. And, you know, some of it should be my cohort, not just to me. Right. And that's where serendipity could come in. I may need Metamusle. I don't, but I may. So Samuel, I'm just making fun of myself, guys. But I mean, you know, there should be this. They're not thinking about what's a cohort, what's a richie ed, and what's a
Brett (01:26:55.698)
Yeah.
Brett (01:27:00.033)
Yeah,
Richy Glassberg (01:27:11.366)
a national campaign because I want to do stuff.
Rio Longacre (01:27:11.838)
Well but okay okay, but to but to play devil's advocate for a second. So I agree with you. The like like I have not seen great examples of creative or or compelling campaigns in a long time. I don't know, maybe some of its age where you get a little jaded, you get busy, but like also and maybe some of it also is like the fracturing of media, right? So during the great campaigns you're thinking of, like the Wendy's Where's the Beef, we had five television channels when that came out, right? Or or six or whatever, right? So it was yeah I
Brett (01:27:33.449)
Yeah.
Richy Glassberg (01:27:34.888)
Cable. Come on. I was a cable puke back then, Rio.
Rio Longacre (01:27:38.73)
I don't think I I think my parents would not let me get cable until I was like in tenth grade or something like that. But but but I remember like there were
Richy Glassberg (01:27:45.054)
By the way, best job out of college was being at I did my first job out of college was every live show on MTV from two weeks before live aid until Amnesty. Pretty much the greatest doing a production manager, pretty much the greatest job ever out of college that any human being could have. Yeah. But you're right. But but I'm saying, Rio, you're a hundred percent right. But I'm saying something to you. Why aren't people thinking about there was really good advertising to women twenty-five to thirty-four?
Rio Longacre (01:27:58.357)
must have been fond. Yeah. Yeah.
Brett (01:27:59.055)
Totally.
Richy Glassberg (01:28:13.179)
And women 25 to 54. Why can't you have cohorts? Why do we why does it only have to be one-to-one advertising? Why isn't somebody thinking about reach and frequency and saying, I want to reach 80% of all women between 25 and 54 with this thing? And I want to reach Brett, Richie, and Rio if we were women, because they are specifically targeted and there's a targeted message. There's a brand message and a targeted message.
Rio Longacre (01:28:42.134)
Remember a couple Super Bowls b there was that that's advertisement to f like farmers? That was the I couldn't believe that. It's like how many there's like two percent of the population actually farms. Yeah, I was like to like to farmers. Like who were they advertising to? Like to aspiring farmers or guys that want to dress like farm I just thought that was it w
Richy Glassberg (01:28:42.278)
I know people are
Richy Glassberg (01:28:48.948)
that was that was the Dodge Ram. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, yeah.
Richy Glassberg (01:28:57.209)
No, they were using the farmer as a an as a as an image on what we never were as a country. That's all, dude. Come on. I mean, wait, by the way, you wanna you wanna do the research on it? The image of the the cowboy. You know, thirty percent of all the cowboys on cattle drives were black. We don't ever see that image. You know, the the falsification of our history is crazy about Right. So let's let's talk about yeah, let's talk about w what
Brett (01:29:06.307)
Mm.
Rio Longacre (01:29:06.802)
was so it was so terrible, right? It was just like
Rio Longacre (01:29:20.106)
We're black or blacker Mexican, right? Or s some crazy number like that, yeah. Yeah.
Richy Glassberg (01:29:25.851)
what our country really was versus the h you know, the the the hazy gauzey, you know, fake, you know, you know, nineteen fifties Donna Reed, no offense to her as the actress, of what America was. Come on. You know?
Rio Longacre (01:29:41.524)
Listen, I idealized version. Maybe that's what they're trying to do with the pharmacy, but I just think, yeah, this is like so so agencies could do a better job. And part of that maybe is just creative's been so cheapened, Brett. You brought the point up of performance marketing, right? If everything's about opens, clicks, eyeballs, last click and all these things and about like immediate r like return on ad spend, right? And how many conversions did you get then and you can swap out creative. It has been devalued a lot like over the over over the over decades, right?
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