The Install Is Just the Beginning: Mick Rigby on Retention, AI Discovery, the Next Era of App Growth

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For years, app marketing revolved around one metric: installs.

But what if installs are actually the least important measure of success?

In this episode of Signal & Noise, Brett House and Rio Longacre sit down with Mick Rigby, Founder & CEO of Yodel Mobile, to explore how nearly two decades in mobile have reshaped the way brands should think about app growth.

Mick founded Yodel Mobile in 2007—months before Apple launched the App Store—and has spent the last nineteen years helping brands including Gymshark, NBCUniversal, B&Q, and Kuda acquire, retain, and monetize app users. Having witnessed every major shift in the mobile ecosystem—from the birth of smartphones to privacy regulation and AI—he offers a unique perspective on where the industry is headed.

The conversation explores why downloads are only the beginning of the customer journey and why sustainable growth comes from activation, engagement, retention, and lifetime value—not simply acquiring more users.

Brett, Rio, and Mick discuss why marketing and product teams must work together, how poor onboarding drives churn, and why companies should spend less time optimizing acquisition and more time creating products customers genuinely want to use.

The episode also examines the impact of Apple’s App Tracking Transparency (ATT) changes, the growing importance of first-party data, attribution challenges, and why experimentation and customer insight have become more valuable than ever.

AI is another major theme. Mick explains how AI assistants are changing app discovery, why traditional App Store Optimization (ASO) is evolving, and how app marketers should prepare for a future where AI recommends apps based on user intent, credibility, and product quality—not just keywords.

The discussion also covers the Apple-Google duopoly, rising acquisition costs, predictive analytics, customer lifetime value, and why marketers need to spend less time asking what happened and more time understanding why it happened.

Topics include:

* Why installs are an overrated KPI

* Moving from acquisition to lifetime value

* Product and marketing alignment

* Customer onboarding and retention

* Privacy, ATT, and first-party data

* AI-driven discovery and the future of ASO

* Mobile measurement and attribution

* The Apple-Google duopoly

* Predictive analytics and churn reduction

* The future of smartphones and app growth

Whether you’re a mobile marketer, product leader, founder, or digital executive, this episode offers practical insights into how the app economy is evolving—and why the next generation of winning apps will be built around customer value, not just customer acquisition.

Read the full transcript below.

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Brett (00:01.065)

Hey everybody, welcome back to Signal and Noise. This is Brett House, joined by my co-host Rio Longre. And today's guest is Mick Rigby. I didn't have to ask for the pronunciation of that one. That's pretty straightforward. founder and CEO of Yodel Mobile, a global app growth. Yeah, yeah, and I'm known, I'm known. My my my son makes fun of me for screwing up names when you write can. He's like, you mess up like every other name.

Rio (00:06.946)

Hey there.

Rio (00:16.942)

If you would screw that one up, Brett, that would have been very questionable.

Mick Rigby (00:19.758)

Hahaha

Brett (00:27.301)

So so Yodel Mot Mobile is it's a global app growth marketing agency that helps brands acquire, retain, and monetize app users. I think it's just a simple way of describing it. You founded the company in 2007, really months after the that Apple launched the App Store. so this was early days, and you spent two decades helping brands sort of na the last 20 years nearly, you know, your life work, your own company, navigate the evolution.

Of the mobile economy, which has changed a lot since we all started. I mean, you were there in the very beginning. I saw that you were a member of the MMA, which was previously called the Mobile Marketing Association. Yeah. It's now called the Marketing and Media Association. We actually had Greg Stewart, the the CEO. Yeah, so he's a friend of the pod, and I've known him for a long time. So it's interesting. You've been you've been around f w w you know, b b before the before times, so to speak.

Rio (01:03.724)

We're not talking mixed martial arts. Yeah, we're talking

Mick Rigby (01:05.89)

hahahaha

Rio (01:09.198)

We had Greg Stewart on, we gave him a hard time about that. Yeah. He's a great guy.

Mick Rigby (01:10.839)

Okay.

Yeah.

Brett (01:20.545)

for the MMA, which which you know clearly says you've been involved in the industry at at a thought leadership and executive level. and that's why we we thought you'd be a phenomenal guest you know on this this podcast to talk about the evolution of the mobile economy. I mean you've worked with companies like Gymshark, BNQ, NBC Universal, CUDA. So you've got a bunch of clients. you're a speaker, a mentor. and what I actually really thought about your background

is a neurodiversity advocate. So we're definitely gonna talk about that because I think that's a really interesting topic. Kind of change change it up a little bit. and and you've been recognized in a bunch of places. Campaigns 40 over 40, which is proof perhaps that app marketing and and you have truly reached middle age. Join join the join the middle age, the the advanced middle age party with the with Rio and I. and then the Beam of 1000, which people didn't know.

Mick Rigby (02:06.676)

yes.

Brett (02:14.642)

Don't know Bima's British Interactive Media Association. sorry, one hundred. It's like sort of the top one hundred thought leaders in the in the space. And then the drum, and I know the founders of the drum. you know, they they do a bunch of awards programs, Trailblazer and marketing, for EMIA. So that's that's all awesome. And and I thought that combination of executive experience, founder experience, we love to have founders and builders on the show because they they typically have they typically bridge the gaps between product and commercial.

really well. In fact, people typically that are founders bring those two things together as a superpower. Right. It's like you can you can explain the value to to in clients and you can actually build this stuff. But you know, that combined with industry recognition, and and just your your leadership experience is why we wanted you on the show. and we're discussed you know, we're super excited to s to to discuss not just how app growth has changed, but but like what sustainable mobile growth in the mobile economy looks like going forward. And and so Mick

Welcome to the shop.

Rio (03:13.358)

You're welcome.

Mick Rigby (03:14.68)

Well, thank you guys. That was a fantastic introduction as well. I'm very excited to be here. as I say, just keep me, I could spin off into all sorts of different areas and go into so much detail, but just keep me on track. But I'm really looking forward to the next hour and sharing some of my thoughts and history with you.

Rio (03:35.183)

Yeah, well we'll we're good we'll try to keep you on track. Sometimes we have a hard time keeping ourselves on track, but we'll definitely do our best, Mick. And so Mick, we're we're like as Britt mentioned, we're thrilled to have you here. we love the fact that you started this this mobile journey really when mobile was starting to take off, right? Like right when Apple launched the App Store. People people who who are younger may not may not realize this, that the world was very different back then, right? We weren't spending that much time s on phones. We certainly weren't spending any time on apps, they didn't exist.

Right. so it makes you like like an ear an early start. And I don't know if that was intentional or lucky. I know that success in business usually is a combination of that, but you know, you're twenty years in mobile and funny, when we were looking through your profile, Brett and I were joking that you know, I think you got a forty over forty award. And and like and then we were gonna joke. I think Brett, we need fifty over fifty awards. Yeah.

Mick Rigby (04:05.133)

That's right.

Brett (04:28.334)

Yes, yes. I I already landed that joke, but the fifty over fifty awards, right? Yeah, recognize, you know, no more ageism, right? You know? Some of us are later bloomers in life, right? I consider myself one of those.

Mick Rigby (04:28.683)

Hahaha

Rio (04:35.374)

Yeah yeah, why not, right? So but like but

Mick Rigby (04:36.053)

Yeah, too slow.

Yeah I think the grey has the giveaway isn't it?

Rio (04:43.724)

It is the gray hair or or or the the missing hair, right?

Brett (04:43.91)

Or the mail b or the mail pattern baldness. Or the nineteen year old kid in college. Yeah, those are all pretty good giveaways.

Rio (04:50.926)

But but you know, jokes aside though, I the all this experience we felt and I certainly feel gives you a very rare vantage point into this injury, specifically in mobile. You've seen it go from really an experiment, no one knew where it was going, to in many ways the center of a lot of consumer relationship and certainly consumer engagement with technology. You look at the time is people spend on their phones, engaging engaging with playing on apps, engaging with apps. We had a an episode that dropped this morning about a

VC firm focusing just on gaming. It's become a huge industry when you look at it. yet many companies really still evaluate app growth through installs and and downloads and things like that. That I'm not saying there's no importance there, but certainly maybe are less important than some other things and can be gamed to a certain extent, no pun intended there. So we're we're really excited to dig into look at what's changed, look at how brands can regain users, can grow their businesses and all that. So

Maybe jump in, like looking at all that experience you've had. Like what has this revealed to you about how the technology changed and how you've how consumers have responded to that and have you had to respond as a business leader?

Mick Rigby (06:01.242)

Yeah, well, mean, it is it's like the Dark Ages, isn't it? know, 1820 years ago when when when the iPhone was was launched, I think it was 18 years ago now when it was launched, you know, it was an absolute game changer. And, know, back then, the most the most interesting apps that people were downloading were were things like the iPint, you know, where you could just it was literally for all of you, you younger viewers today.

It was literally just it looked like it was a pint on your phone and you tipped it and you drank it.

Brett (06:30.984)

And you can tip it and sort of the d Yeah. Yeah. And there's a gyroscope in the phone that probably enables some of that capability, interestingly enough.

Rio (06:33.304)

Remember that and it it it seemed like you're drinking beer, right?

Mick Rigby (06:36.503)

That's exactly it. And that was the fastest.

Rio (06:42.51)

And there was a lighter rap, remember you could bring the lighter to like rock shows and like you could Yes, funny.

Mick Rigby (06:42.817)

That was it.

Yeah, yeah. It was and you know, if you think back back to those days, they were the most rapidly downloaded apps that they were the apps that people were using to where we are now, where, know, your finance apps, your mapping apps, they guide your life. You know, they're an essential part and parcel of what you do and arguably who you are and the decisions you make. So it's gone from very much, you know, the Stone Age to

you know, the 22nd, 23rd century in the space of the space of 18 years. So it's been a huge, rapid change. I mean, back then, the first five years of the industry, you you talk, we talk about being a mobile and app agency to potential clients and they would not have a clue what you were talking about. You know, that that that was it was it was so much more of an education back then. And then and then the industry changed when things like the MMPs came out. So you could actually

Brett (07:35.591)

Yeah.

Mick Rigby (07:45.377)

join the dots on an ad getting a download then, know, ASO.

Rio (07:49.262)

Yeah, you could attribute it to add exposures and things like that, right, yeah.

Mick Rigby (07:53.152)

Absolutely. And you could track it. So you weren't just you weren't just throwing your money away. You know, you were actually tracking sensibly, you know, that the users you were downloading. And then the ASO came about, you know, where you could actually utilize keywords to generate more visibility within the app store and get your app downloaded. You know, and then we have the privacy rules coming in, which changed again. And now we have AI and you know how that is starting to impact not just what those apps are.

but also how apps are discovered. So it's been an incredible evolution. But one of the things I think has always, always excited me about this space is it is so heavily invested in, you we've got the two, two of the biggest companies in the world have, you know, the mobile and app infrastructure is central to their product offering. You know, exactly Google and Apple, and you've got that level of investment going into it.

Brett (08:21.703)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Brett (08:43.313)

Google and Apple. Yep.

Mick Rigby (08:49.815)

You know, it's a sleeping giant. And I say that from the perspective as, you know, the majority of agencies don't really think about mobile and apps. They're all digital and, you know, out of home and, you know, connected screens and all that. But it's there, it's central. It's how the vast majority of individuals actually consume the information, the internet, you know, get the facts that they want.

through it, you know, it's absolutely central to my life.

Brett (09:18.629)

Yeah, and that's not just a supposition on your part of it, that's fact. And there's a lot of published data around consumer. I mean, I think it's up upwards of about five trillion hours globally is spent on mobile apps alone in in in nearly four hours a day. And if I look at my own kids or both teenagers, right, there's there's at least four, if not more. Even you know, i y add my wife, I mean it it almost it spans generations. And so that was a conversation we actually had at it possible, Rio, if you remember with

Rio (09:36.568)

Could be more than that, right?

Brett (09:47.388)

With the great guy from Digital Turbine, Michael Ackerman, who's their chief, I chief product and chief sales officer, chief of officer. And he talked about how underutilized it is from a brand advertising perspective, considering how much time spent across all generations.

Rio (09:51.64)

That was a good interview, yeah. Remember that.

Rio (10:04.6)

Well Brett, remember we had Brian Quinn from Apps Fly, right? He he confirmed like it's it's under monetized, it's underappreciated as a channel for sure.

Brett (10:11.685)

Yeah. And wh and why do you think that is, Mick? I that kind of gets me to that question of of how of brands, you know, from from, you know, when it was a pint, you know, and it was sort of like, hey, we're playing around with this form factor to the the the the new word that I remember when smartphone as a vocabulary word sort of entered the the the ecosystem, right? People are like I had a I had a friend of mine, a friend of both of Rio and I, Noah that like, Why do you call it smartphones? Like he said it dismissively and I'm like, Well, that's what the category is being called, but it was so early days

Mick Rigby (10:12.139)

Yeah.

Brett (10:41.609)

That people didn't even call it have the same sort of diction for how you describe this. But but how do you think brands have transformed how they think about it from the early days when you saw it very early on to to where we are today as a as an ecosystem that you know?

Mick Rigby (10:58.742)

Yeah. Well, I mean, if you think about some of the biggest, some of the biggest brands in the app space, they're standalone brands. They wouldn't exist without without the smartphone. You know, Uber, for instance, you know, Google Maps, you know, these are these are standalone apps that could not they could not be here without that device that sits in your pocket. And I'm holding up an empty empty handy because I I actually lost my phone last night.

Brett (11:14.769)

Yeah.

Mick Rigby (11:28.192)

So for first time for years, I'm actually phone-less, which is bit scary, but yes, I do, I do, totally. Well, I'm glad I've got my new friends here to talk to. thanks guys. And even if you think to some of the biggest brands outside of the app space in the digital environment, they're still...

Rio (11:28.466)

no.

Rio (11:32.59)

You probably feel naked, right?

Brett (11:35.589)

You feel naked and alone.

Rio (11:37.838)

And isolated right. Yeah. That's their friends are for, Mick, yeah.

Mick Rigby (11:55.745)

big in the app space, but they're not dominant as some of those standalone brands are. you know, they've come to the market and they've established themselves. And I think one of the things I guess, because of the breadth of my tenure within this particular space is that I've seen an awful lot come to the market and go. But a lot of the big brands were very late in the day coming to the app space. And as a consequence, a lot of the upstarts

you know, have gone in there and dominated. And I think we're seeing now a lot more clear direction and strategy for businesses actually understanding now how the app can sit central to their offering. They're now going, right, I'm going to bring it to the market and do it properly rather than perhaps what was happening maybe five, 10 years ago, which was my competitors are there, so I need an app. I don't care what it does. We just have to have real estate.

And it was a very poor experience for a lot of those established brands or the consumers of those brands in the app environment.

Rio (13:02.638)

Question about that. So was it but I mean I guess two-part question. Number one, was that because like the execution was bad but and the apps just didn't take off? Or is it more like like I think about like how I use my smartphone, right? Most of my time, yeah, there's millions of apps, but I'd probably maybe have 10, 5 to 10 that I spend almost all my time in, right? and I spent a lot of time in those apps, right? And I really like them, but I'm not it's not like I've you know, I'll download a lot of apps, but I'll never use them again. I'll delete them, right? So

Mick Rigby (13:20.684)

Yeah.

Rio (13:28.972)

Are brands still building apps because they're s they think just think they're supposed to? It's kind of just a almost like a rite of passage almost, or is there a compelling reason to build them like if they build them right customers customers will use them and will return again and again?

Mick Rigby (13:44.973)

It's a lot less than it used to be. There are still businesses building apps that shouldn't be building the app or building it the way that they're doing. And I think they're getting the wrong, they've got the wrong teams internally. Maybe from a web build perspective or strategically, they've not really understood how the relationship works with the consumer and that mobile device.

and then the brand and the business within that context. A lot of businesses tend to build apps, but again, not not as much as it used to, but they're still out there from the perspective of the businesses. So we can do this, this and this. Therefore, we're to put it into app and we're to give it to the consumer. What they don't do is ask the consumer, do you want us to do this, this and this in the app? If not, do want us to do DC and, you know, whatever?

So you know, they're not actually doing the research. They're not spending the time to really dig into what the consumer's thinking. And you kind of touched on it a second ago, Rio. You you've got 10 apps that you use. Five, six, seven years ago, you probably have 30 or 40 apps that you were probably using. And what we as consumers are doing now is we're getting more pinnacoty.

we demand more from the services we're getting through the app environments because the technology in there is brilliant. Penicatum. Penicatum.

Brett (15:10.36)

Or or per snickety. Yeah, per nickety or per snickety. one one of those two. Well no, and I think the retention rates of app downloads like like past thirty days is about four percent. Right? And I think yeah, and I th I think seventy five percent of users

Mick Rigby (15:17.334)

P-P-Panicaty!

Rio (15:27.118)

Was that low? Not surprising.

Brett (15:32.95)

stop using an app within three days, right? And so I mean I have probably four hundred, three hundred. I occasionally do a Marie Kondo of my my apps, right? Where I'm like, you know, does this bring me joy? And then I delete it if it doesn't. but I still find myself with with using to your point Rio about ten to twelve, maybe fifteen core apps. Yeah.

Rio (15:51.937)

The number has fallen for sure over the over the years. Yeah, as the apps that app as the apps have gotten better that I like to use and they do more things maybe. But but Mick, I th I thought you brought up really good point about talking to users, engaging with users to understand what they actually need, not what you think they probably want. And I think that's a big problem in tech, right? I mean, Brett, there's that example I talked about a couple of weeks ago. We were brought in, Mick, too, by a regional bank here in the US and they had deployed this app and they and their their goal was to get people to use it for wealth management, which I just

Mick Rigby (15:54.817)

Yeah.

Brett (16:11.844)

Yeah.

Rio (16:21.592)

I remember thinking, okay, I don't know, like, why would they use this over Robinhood or their e trader, you know, there's a million great wealth management investing apps, right? That are like have mass adoption, are quite good, right? That, you know, good luck beat, you know, beat good luck beating Robin Hood, for example, in terms of user engagement. They wanted it for that. And remember, and they they told us, this app is garbage. We want you to like give us recommendations on reskinning it and and making it look better. And they were all convinced it was a UX problem. And it's funny, I remember when we actually talked to some customers who realized,

Brett (16:33.403)

Yeah.

Rio (16:50.654)

No one wants it for that. But what they did want it for, which it was very good at, was being kind of like a in a concierge where people would instead of knowing, do I I want to I wanna talk about my mortgage, having to go through a switchboard, call the bank, not ever to talk to, or I want to manage my bank account. Like this endless like decision tree of where to be routed was so annoying, but the app was great at it, but they did market it for that and that those features were kind of hidden.

Mick Rigby (17:11.648)

Yeah.

Rio (17:15.82)

So our recommendation was actually just to pivot and just focus on that and just get rid of all of the wealth management. So just asking the customers, I think that's a really good point. And looking at that, like looking at customer experience, I I know like on I think on your website and your material you talked about the infinite app growth loop, right? I'm using quotes here across acquisition, engagement, retention, monetization. Like looking at customer experience, where do you think that breaks usually? Where where like where's a good place to initially focus on? Or is or is it all over the place?

Mick Rigby (17:42.868)

Yeah, well, I think I think the key, the key to try and minimize the breakage is, is to ensure that the product and the marketing are absolutely in line because you do from a marketing perspective, we're all we're painting a beautiful picture. We're we're we're selling the dream. And from a product perspective, they're they're building this tent, build an app that works, that delivers, you know,

where you get the breakdown is the difference between what the expectation is and what the reality is. So you do get that breakdown between message and actuality. And I think what you can see in the space is that where success lands is when product and marketing communications are very close.

You know, they're not sitting in silos. They're working together to to that end. And if they do that, you're more likely to be able to get that stickiness, the retention. You know, the point that you were flagging out earlier, Brett, is that, know, you can lose nearly 95 percent of your users within the first 30 days. And there's a myriad of reasons why that happens. But if the product is good, it does what it says. And the marketing says that you're going to get this experience. You're not going to lose as many.

You know, so that's an absolute central core, I think.

Brett (19:09.627)

Yeah.

Brett (19:13.54)

Yeah, you and you had a really good grid. You I think it acquiring app users is have to battle, the real challenge is getting them to stay. You know, and this is a classic churn retention problem.

Right. And and and I think to your point, Rio, is that is that when you look at like what chat GPT, I mean they had a they were the fastest to a billion downloads right across Google Play and and Apple. and and why? Because they gave people the facility to answer questions. Like I've got a question just to your point with with the financial services app. People just want quick answers to their questions. you know, or or to their inquiries. I want to buy a product, I want to buy tickets, I wanna research something.

Mick Rigby (19:21.758)

Absolutely.

Brett (19:51.226)

Give me quick answers and if you can get quickly to that those kind of core use cases, you're more likely to be successful. And and ChatGPT kind of gives you kind of that window into answer everything I've got a question for humanly possible, whether it's Chat GPT or or so you could see why those things grew from a from a value delivery perspective for consumers within the the app ecosystems.

Rio (20:12.558)

Well, but Mick, how much of that like what Brett's describing, people dropping off, right, that ninety six percent, how much of that is because the app's just maybe doesn't have the right features or maybe like there's a misalignment, as you mentioned, between the go to market motion, which would be the the the marketing communication messaging, the branding, how they're communicating, the value proposition, and then what what the app actually does. Like how how do you think that balances in the end?

Mick Rigby (20:37.641)

Yeah, I think I think I think there's a you know, there can be a massive mismatch. And, you know, we're talking about the tech, we're talking about, you know, the communication. But what we also need to build into this conversation is the consumer, the user, and how psychologically they have changed, we have changed, our expectations have changed, our demands are so much more focused and

the quality of what we want is so much higher than even a couple of years ago. You know, so we're talking about three things, not two, the communication, the product and the consumer. And that has to be that they're all intrinsic. And, you know, you touched on the what we call the infinite app growth loop. And that's all about, you know, how everything is connected, not just the individuals that we talked about in the tech, but we're also talking about the layers of communication.

Brett (21:13.826)

Yep.

Mick Rigby (21:36.423)

You need, you know, you've got your initial user acquisition through your advertising, then that drives through to the app store. Your app store has to reflect what you're advertising saying. It also has the ratings on there. So you can immediately see what other consumers are thinking about that, that particular product. And then you click and you get, and it downloads onto your phone and you open it. And then immediately they're asking you to, can we track you? Would you accept push notifications? And the consumers are going, I don't even know what the app does yet.

Brett (22:06.041)

Yeah. Well, and they're doing that because of regulatory they have to do that, right? According to policy from Apple or Google, right? Vers versus what would be you know, 'cause you're right, it d it does sort of you're a bit standoffish. They're like, you know I and the first thing, you know, I'd be I'd it'd be interesting to see the stats around ask app not to track or only track while using app, right? 'Cause I

Mick Rigby (22:06.335)

Does it deliver what I want? And you're asking for all of this information.

Mick Rigby (22:15.22)

They have to.

Mick Rigby (22:20.68)

Yeah.

Rio (22:27.894)

Seventy five percent opt out or don't opt in. Seventy five, eighty percent. Yeah, that's where it's where it's netted out over the years.

Brett (22:30.903)

Seventy five percent. Yeah.

Mick Rigby (22:31.228)

Yeah. Yeah, it's huge. It's huge. Yeah. But you don't you don't need to ask. There are certain questions you have to ask right away, but there's others you don't, you know, and that's it. It's like it's, you know, understanding the consumer and the journey they're going through. When's the right time to ask? You know, if they start using the app, then maybe that's the point then to ask them, you know, you're obviously finding this beneficial. We can we can we can realize where you're

Brett (22:34.925)

Yeah. W which is not surprising.

Brett (22:41.679)

Yeah.

Mick Rigby (23:00.114)

your location is, do you want us to track that? And then we can tell you where the restaurants are that you're after, rather than right at the start. you know, that and that's a huge amount of information or requests that's actually hitting that individual right at the start of that relationship, you know, and we all know in a relationship, it takes time to develop. You know, you ask the right questions at the right time, you do the right things at the right time. You don't just...

Brett (23:22.159)

Yeah.

Brett (23:27.193)

This is

Mick Rigby (23:28.298)

throw everything into it from day one.

Brett (23:30.005)

Yeah, this is like classic like customer acquisition strategy to loyalty and retention strategy and then eventually to to advocacy and there's a timing and a cadence at which you you know, you pop the question, so to speak, of of you know, you know, th that might scare people off. So do you do you think that the app economy is is maturing from sort of a a land grab to more of a fewer players?

Mick Rigby (23:43.134)

Yeah.

Brett (23:53.006)

delivering more value and and higher levels of retention and to my GPT point. you know, I've probably deleted fifteen, twenty, twenty-five apps

As a result of getting the answers that I'm looking for from ChatGPT or or Claude for that matter. Like just as an example, I downloaded a bunch of like plant and insect snap, you know, photo photo apps, right? When I go on walks and stuff, I like to take pictures and I'm a gardener, kind of farmer. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm and I'd go and I'd take a picture of a specific, like, is this a weed, you know, or is this is or is this one of the wildflowers that I planted in my vegetable garden? You know, that kind of thing. And and

Rio (24:17.884)

Yeah, Chat GPT does that extremely well.

Brett (24:29.931)

realized th they've one they would immediately or or shortly after using the app they would ask me to pay. So there'd be a you know, you'd I'd have like a I'd have to upgrade to a premium tier, so five ninety nine a month. And then I realized to your point, Ria, that that GPT does exactly the same thing for the for what I'm already paying. And so I went and just

Rio (24:47.32)

Well well, Bert, remember it ca it can I don't know if you were there, like it was when we from the Hearst House from s there was a huge, like massive yacht sitting in the middle of the the harbor there. And then someone we were with took a picture of Chat T P T he said, Whose yacht is this? And it came back, Jeff Bezos. It's incredible. Yeah. Yeah.

Brett (24:59.855)

Yep.

Mick Rigby (25:01.48)

Wow. That is incredible, isn't it?

Brett (25:02.723)

Yep. Yeah, and so and so so do you do yeah, and so my question, I mean long long winded of saying is there is do you see this concentration of a couple a couple of very big players, you know, Amazon for e commerce, GPT or Anthropic for for sort of L LMs, maybe maybe some of the others, the Gemini and their perplexities, right? And you know, like just dominant players that rule a specific category that that or do you see like are we in a maturing economy, I guess, for for the app world?

Mick Rigby (25:33.034)

Yeah, I think, I think, I mean, there is a lot of consolidation and, know, there are, there were apps that were absolutely brilliant are now redundant because as you say, chat GPT and others can do what they did to that quality or even better. Um, and you don't have to pay for them. So, you know, there, there is, there is a lot of that going on and I think it's going to continue. But one of the things that really, you know, really excites me and, and, and, and, and I guess.

keeps me happy that I'm in the right spaces. The amount of innovation that's still out there, the amount of brilliant thinking that from kids coming straight out of college that don't have the confines and you can't do that kind of mentality that a lot of us get when you get older, when reality bites. And we're in a lucky position, I think at Yodel, where

You know, we do get so many businesses coming to us saying, hey, we're going to do this. What do you think? And, you know, a hundred, they're great. One is absolutely amazing. And that is such an exciting environment to be in. you know, yes, there's consolidation at the top and there will always be. But I think there's still, you know, the Ubers of the future are still out there. They're still

you know, they're still looking for that gap, for that opportunity and bringing it to

Rio (27:02.978)

Yeah, because it's interesting you say that and you look at the numbers, the numbers actually agree with you. So, like for example, like how many new apps are being launched. So, Brett, there's consolidation, right? And I think like the LLMs are doing are doing in the frontier models are doing to apps kind of what same thing they're doing to publishers. They're reducing, you know, they're doing a lot of things, right? And and they're they're not sending traffic to publishers. It sounds like they're probably not steering people towards apps either, but that yet the n new app releases on the Apple App Store jump thirty percent.

this year to six hundred thousand apps and it's gone up by eighty percent year on year early in this year relative to the year before that. That's an incredible spike. Now obviously vibe coding, like the fact it's easier for people who are non-technical or maybe people with just smaller teams to build and deploy apps now. That's probably the big reason for that. But that is an incredible surge of apps that shows I think despite all of this consolidation, people still want to build apps. Now the question is are are they using them? And I guess d looking at like

Mick Rigby (27:49.727)

Mm-hmm.

Rio (28:01.282)

Pivoting for a second, Mick, into some of the the metrics, right? There's been a lot of criticism. I guess not criticism, but like remember when Apple launched ATT, it made it much harder, Brett, your to your point earlier, to track people with IDFA. And seventy-five percent of people are opting or not opting in to actually share you know to share across to share to share with the app where they're going afterwards and what they're doing. So it makes it much harder for attribution. And then I think traditionally there was this like like my like very folk like

Brett (28:14.68)

Yeah.

Rio (28:31.042)

Myopic focus almost on on like downloads, cost per install, metrics like that. And then there was that case study I I think Uber had where they were were were marketing on meta, right? And they turned it off. It didn't the attribution was being gamed, didn't didn't it was didn't drive a single download that was incremental, right? so the so there was no incrementality, any of that admin, which they then cut off. So what are people looking at now? Like how has that evolved based on some of these changes we've discussed?

Mick Rigby (28:50.387)

Yeah. Yeah.

Mick Rigby (29:01.117)

Yeah, think, you know, there's that I think the quality of data now is there. think, you you touched on ATT, that the, you know, the fact now that you've got a lot more real first party data, you know, to work with people that have actually opted in. The challenge, you know, from where it was maybe a few years back is that

You know, Meta, the black boxes of Google did all the delivery for you. You didn't really need to think, you know, you just produced your ad and they would then change the ad and reiterate it. And then they put it out and you get all of these people coming. And the problem was, though, is that they weren't necessarily the right and engaged individuals. And with the strengthening of the quality of the data and the reduction of the amount of data that's out there.

You know, you've now got to be a lot smarter. You've now got to utilize a lot more tools to actually get the insight that you need to be able to deliver on what those those challenges are. And, you know, you had apps fly around a few weeks back. The you know, the quality of what they're doing, you know, the complexity of what an MMP is doing rather than, you know, from tracking within a digital environment, whether that be fingerprinting or or cookies, you know.

That level of complexity has been born because of the challenges of the market itself. And, you know, that is so useful and so essential, I guess, in terms of being able to determine the ability to track and the right kind of tracking to get the right kind of people.

Rio (30:47.32)

That's that's a good point. If app if the black boxes weren't black boxes and some of the metrics hadn't been gamed and could and if they could be trusted a hundred percent of the time, why would you need an apps flyer, right? But obviously you do, right? People need they in they need to understand attribution. It's it's hard. It's not easy to do, but they need it. That's a good point.

Mick Rigby (30:58.811)

Exactly.

Brett (31:05.432)

Yeah, no, and and and just for those that don't know what an MP, it's a mobile measurement partner. And there's there's a bunch of players, like Appscler who we had on, branch, adjust, I think Cachava's in that category, singular, right? And getting visibility, I mean this sounds to me like the classic trajectory where it's like you're doing black box advertising, it's the Wanamaker problem, you don't know what's working, you don't know how to optimize either creative or or sort of audience targeting sort of capabilities, and so having the analytics around

Mick Rigby (31:14.78)

just

Brett (31:35.299)

with first party data to your point, you get a you get a lot more fidelity into really who you know, there's there's micro targeting. Who's who's gonna be less likely to churn when they do download an app, right? you know, so I'm assuming that that's part of is is that having a a downstream impact? I mean are you seeing lower churn rates with your clients and and and and what are they doing that's that's different with data and analytics to kind of improve their their ac their loyalty and their retention?

Mick Rigby (32:04.67)

Yeah. And the point to make here, though, is it takes an awful lot of work. It is the complexity in order to minimize that churn. You know, we talked, we touched on the product and need for that product to be absolutely what that individual wants. But within that context and the fact that, know, Rio, you've only got 10 apps that you currently use.

You know, how do you, how do you build up that relationship and maintain that and data, understanding the data, understanding and seeing the signals that, know, why do they, why does that cohort of individuals, why have they stayed and they're carrying on using the app? Why is that cohort, you know, two months in and they've suddenly dropped off. What are they? So pulling that data and getting access to that data and utilizing it in the right way.

is absolutely essential in then the second stage, which is actually building out the relevant strategies. you know, mobile falls very firmly into the argument of marginal gains. And what marginal gains is, it's about continuing to do lots of little things to have an impact. So it doesn't mean that, you know, you've immediately got to change your acquisition CRM program.

It means that you start looking at incremental impact on your CRM, but you're also looking at the messaging strategy that came into play from the app store to get that individual to then download and then to subscribe or to sign up. And constantly making those little adjustments week in, week out has a far bigger impact than concentrating on one thing. Am I getting the right CRM strategy in play?

And they all need to be looked at. It's like a graphic equalizer. You're constantly tweaking and constantly pushing. And you can never settle on what you've achieved already because suddenly Apple will change an algorithm. Or your consumers will then demand something more. And those changes then knock everything out of kilter. So it is a continual.

Mick Rigby (34:23.549)

continual march forward. You're never going to get it right, but you're constantly looking at incrementality and impact.

Rio (34:29.73)

Yeah, Mick, I think that's an interesting point that you made about like looking at like holistic, like let's say like the identity graph itself, right? I've noticed a lot of companies that you know that are product based companies, it's challenging to combine product analytics. And that would be like when people are logged in, what are they doing? What are they clicking on? What are they not doing, right? What features are they using? And for some very rich products, especially web products, right? It can be can be pretty challenging. Maybe mobile is a little more simple, but I don't think it's that easy, right? But then combining that with the CRM.

And the first party data they have like within, you know, for CRM and night and for marketing. And then you have the paid media, which is kind of another silo that might even be even getting getting that out of platforms like Meta can be challenging, right? But so I think see this almost like these three legs of a stool. And you really need all three to understand how you acquiring people, how much you how much right, how much are you paying to acquire them? What are they doing when you acquire them? Are you using the product? And then which ones are which ones are probably going to churn? And then

Using that to inform your strategies and craft the right messaging around it. I I I see it as very challenging. Are are clients you're working with getting better at that? Is that or is that beginning to be solved or is it still a big problem?

Mick Rigby (35:38.397)

The the the the I think the chat the challenge is that the majority of mentality out there is let's fill the top of the funnel. Let's go and get the users and the market now is it's yes, there's a lot of them apps coming to the market. But in truth, the the spends are continuing to go up or outpacing the amount of it's getting more expensive to acquire users and

Brett (35:47.66)

Yeah.

Mick Rigby (36:06.119)

The smart money is on doing something that we call flipping the funnel. And that is where you start right from what is the value? What value can we generate from this app, from that consumer base? How do we therefore deliver that value as well to those individuals and therefore start with your planning from value? Look at then retention, look at activation, look at conversion, and then look at acquisition. Because if you can get

that element, those bottom elements of the funnel in play, then every dollar you're spending on your acquisition is going to be far more effective for your ultimate lifetime value. So start at the bottom and then work up rather than the start of the top, which is pretty much where everybody else starts.

Rio (36:53.294)

So it's almost flipping things around, right? Like like like focus on like the customers you acquire, like how much are they worth? And you know, w for a lot of loyalty marketers, Brett, I mean that's kind of been the name of the game, but I think for for mobile marketers, you're right, Mick. I mean, what I've seen anyway has been this like insane focus on downloads and installs, right?

Brett (36:55.32)

Yeah.

Mick Rigby (36:56.219)

That's it.

Brett (37:10.369)

Yeah. And and and what kind of metrics can they pull into the analytics to understand, you know, everything from from hyper segments and hyper targets of specific audiences, but knowing what those audiences are doing, there might be certain propensity sort of signals. Right? Meaning if if we know people have done these three things in these three types of environments, let's say it's it could be mobile web, app or otherwise, these are the people that are likely based on this behavior

over this period of time, right, this kind of temporal intelligence combined with a little bit of audience intelligence tells you who's most likely to be interested in your app. I mean, is that is that are we getting that smart with it in terms of knowing what they're doing before they ever arrive and before we ever craft the the messaging around the acquisition play?

Mick Rigby (37:55.347)

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that they that the winning strategy is the ones that are able to do that. I think, you know, the there are still that, you know, there are still some very simple, basic principles that you should be tracking from a front from the dashboard perspective. So things like your app store conversion and your cost per install, it's still really important, but you need to be looking at your cost per activate activated customer.

your completion of the apps, defining action that could be, you know, a subscription, for instance, you know, you're looking at your day one, day seven, day 30 completion rates. You need to have visibility on those. You need to understand, you know, what your figures are for, you know, subscription, for instance, or any other value conversion within the app. The frequency and recency of use, they're essential. Your revenue, you know, your contribution by cohort margins.

You know, they're really important as well in your lifetime value. You know, your CAC and your CAC payback period. You need to factor those in. And really importantly as well is you need to understand your uninstall and your churn rates, you know, and can you reactivate those individuals? You know, they are probably the seven or eight key metrics you need still to be able to have at the center. They're the basics. That's the foundational information. And then everything else, all the smart stuff like you were talking about.

Brett (39:20.375)

Yeah. So you you can get very predictive around you can get very predictive around what are the and it's a kind of like in the classic B to B or s you classic SAS model, right, you can see and calculate the amount of user interactions, like like touches and engagements within the the platform itself, that is sort of the key threshold to retention and when they go below we did this at my my last company, when they go below a certain threshold, th it directly correlates to high

Mick Rigby (39:37.533)

Yeah.

Brett (39:49.57)

risk of of churn, right? And so and so you're trying to get them to engage with the app more often, which drives down, you know, if you've got somebody in an app that's five ninety nine a month, you know, fifty times a month versus one time a month, the cost to that consumers a lot less, right? Because they're they're getting value out of it because they're there so often. So I'm assuming you're able to get to some level of predictive capacity because they've done this in the SaaS space and the platform space for a very long time. It's hey when we see consumer

or or or client interactions go below a certain point. We know there's there's actions. Yeah, there's there's actions, right? It could be in product actions. Yeah, your customer success team might actually do proactive or automated outreach, right? Is that type of the type of stuff that you're you're consulting on with your clients to say, hey, you should be tracking these analytics and when you see, you know, red light, or or or or third rail, right? You should you should have in app

Rio (40:23.308)

Yeah, we flagged that account for immediate like it is the the propensity to churn has gone up, yeah.

Brett (40:47.999)

Alerts you should there's there's certain actions you should take to to encourage customer engagement, right?

Mick Rigby (40:54.716)

Yes, absolutely. think you've hit the you've hit the nail on the head there, Brett. think, you know, that because because you can get all that data, you know, you can get the you need the volume, but you can get all that level of insight and then you need to be you need to be pouring over that. But the other thing I would certainly flag as well is we're very good in general. All of us, if you've got that kind of information, determining, you know, the what what has happened, what we all need to do.

Brett (41:22.806)

Mm-hmm.

Mick Rigby (41:24.708)

is really turned back into the why. And this is kind of what you guys were talking about earlier, you know, is the, you know, that's great. It's great to have this data, but, and we know that it triggers this particular action where that's a drop off or an increase in, you know, subscription or whatever. But why, why, why is, why are they, why are they doing that then? You know, and, and where I think we lack in the space is the deep dive into the why.

And I'm a big advocate for that understanding, you know, why the consumer in cohort groups are doing those particular things. And by, thank you, and by.

Rio (42:03.31)

I like that. It's not just like gathering the data, right? It's actually thinking, like using your brain to like think, okay, what does it actually mean? It's funny. Consulting, I would always like you know, would would we hire junior people? Like people love cranking out slides and regurgitating things they hear and researching, but like I would stop a lot the team a lot of times say, Okay, what does it mean? That's that's why we're being hired here. That's why you're getting paid this much money to actually produce this output here, this deliverable. So the client wants to know your opinion. If people like, my god, like why I don't know if I'm qualified to do that. I say, Of course you are. Like

Mick Rigby (42:11.304)

Yeah.

Mick Rigby (42:23.153)

Yeah.

Brett (42:32.876)

Yeah.

Rio (42:33.356)

You've you spent like the l like you're you're look you have the numbers in front of you. So I think that's a good point about actually like distilling it into insight and then and actually like actions you can take in order to move the needle, right?

Brett (42:42.396)

Next best action. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, otherwise you're you're in sort of an analysis paralysis loop of, you know, like in and we hear this all the time across the industry, especially as the GENTIC makes sort of next best action and recommendation a lot more sort of at your fingertips in a conversational sort of mode. Right. You ask a system, whether it's an LLM or something internal within your organization, you know, to to provide X, right? That kind of stuff is replacing sort of static dashboards.

Mick Rigby (42:44.827)

Yeah,

Brett (43:12.042)

Right. you know, people are overwhelmed with dashboards that tell them X, Y, or Z, but but what they're missing is sort of what is the next best action? Like what what can you give recommendations on the top three things that are gonna have an incremental impact on, you know, acquisition or whatever the metric is? you know, because that just gets you quicker to doing something about it. Right?

Mick Rigby (43:30.395)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. And I think it's an interesting, it's an interesting area of discussion is because we kind of, you know, we're getting, we're now starting to talk a little bit more about AI. And, you know, the impact that AI is having obviously within in the app and mobile space, but beyond that, and I think, you know, we're getting to that with a lot of the lot of the way that AI I'm seeing is responding is

it's not actually doing the critical thinking. And this is where the human at the end of that pipe, this is where we are now starting to come into play. This is where those individuals with more of that critical thinking can then add an incredibly important additional layer to all that information that's coming back.

Brett (44:03.884)

Yeah.

Rio (44:05.304)

Yeah.

Rio (44:26.912)

Looking at some of the privacy regulations you mentioned earlier, you know, obviously Apple's they will make whatever updates you're going to make to their privacy configurations, let's say, and they'll roll them out and and they'll, you know, for whatever like you know, I know some critics will say Apple's doing it just to drive their own ad business, which I mean, people don't realize this, but the Apple App Store ad businesses are between eight and nine billion dollars. I mean, I work with them

Mick Rigby (44:35.867)

Yeah.

Mick Rigby (44:50.503)

Yeah.

Rio (44:51.362)

Five, six years ago it was only three or four. So it's just growing, not the rate that Amazon's was, but it's certainly growing. and then, you know, I think that's one of the criticisms is of the use some of these, some of these changes to with ATT in order to in order to to favor that a little bit. But but looking at just privacy regulations, you're in the UK, GDPR, I'm I'm I'm sure that's a big deal. Then you have the the the mishmash of ones here, then you have the new A laws. How are some of these privacy regulations and maybe even AI regulations now?

Impacting recommendations you give to clients, things you can do you can't do, measurement. I'm sure it's having a big impact, right?

Mick Rigby (45:28.431)

yeah, yeah, totally. I think a large part of my day now is looking at what the rules are now from a day. How have they changed from last week to where they are this week? Ensuring that the privacy of that data isn't being, I guess, destroyed by one of the execs taking it and sticking it into chat GPT.

There are so many, I guess, cliff falls and challenges and bumps in the road that we've got to be aware of now. Not just from the likes of AI, but also what are the rules? GDPR across Europe is one of the most comprehensive and I guess arguably draconian.

data rule programs that you've got to follow. the amount of stuff that we have to go through on contracts now to make sure that we are compliant is absolutely huge. And as a consequence of that, it obviously does arguably restrict what you can and can't do. Well, it does restrict what you can and can't do without data. So you've got to be smart. This is where things like creativity, where smart strategy utilizing

You know, the tools better rather than being a lazy planner come into play.

Rio (47:03.43)

One thing that privacy has done has and we've heard this a lot, Brett, in different pods, is is it's forced people to look at more like away from deterministic to more probabilistic models, whether it's for targeting or measurement or or different things, right? Because I mean, there were always questions about the accuracy and validity of a lot of the deterministic signals anyway, right? I mean, we've had people complain about having very low match rates when comparing data sets from different from different areas. So I don't think that's

Mick Rigby (47:17.254)

Yeah.

Rio (47:32.142)

You know, I mean that that's another debate. But yet at the same time there's been this focus on first party data, which you mentioned earlier that really can help organizations. Let's say you're launching an app, you want to know who your customers are, what their left-in value is, you wanna put them into groups, you wanna compare that to how they're engaging with your product to product analytics. So there's been this big focus on on first party, on deterministic first party data. So how are you seeing that d dichotomy play itself out out in Mick w where brands are being forced to be

Forced to be more they're being asked to be more aligned on first party d data and deterministic signals, yet at the same time privacy laws are kind of pushing them in the opposite direction. Thoughts?

Mick Rigby (48:10.715)

Yes.

I think, you know, we're having to reinvent the wheel pretty much every year. you know, with the deterministic versus the actual first party, the big challenge is obviously the amount of data that's still available to you. You you have a fraction, I think it's what, 25 % certainly in the app space of the data that you used to have. And I think as a consequence of that, you know,

Rio (48:43.456)

That's because of privacy laws and like changes? Okay, it's a big change, yeah.

Mick Rigby (48:46.392)

Absolutely, absolutely. It's purely down to the privacy laws there. And I think you've got you know, you the challenge with that is then, you know, what have we got and how can we use that now? You know, and the impact that that's had on, you know, acquisition costs, you know, has been absolutely huge, you know, and when when, you know, when Apple came in with the ATT prompt a few years back, you know, the impact of that in terms of costs was

was having a big shift. It was like a seismic shift in the space as a whole, you know, and that's when businesses were starting to focus on, what other levers have we got and what can we use to try and, you know, get back to where we were.

Rio (49:30.22)

How much did costs go up in terms of user acquisition in general? Do you have any anec anecdotal information?

Mick Rigby (49:35.34)

Yeah, do you know what? It's one of those nightmare scenarios that I've tried to put out of my head back in the day, the sweats, the night sweats. But they were jumping. mean, we were seeing, some instances, doubling of the costs overnight. And I think was the smarter businesses that were able then to look at the landscape and go, hell, what do we do now?

Brett (49:43.455)

Little PTSD.

Rio (49:45.09)

Yeah.

Rio (49:52.918)

Probably okay.

Mick Rigby (50:03.782)

and then find the answers and you know, we touched on the MMPs. A lot of those businesses were really good in terms of trying to understand some of that data and what could and couldn't be used.

Brett (50:16.213)

Well and it does it just put

Rio (50:16.526)

Well that's what I guess what gave birth to those MPs, right? When F Trade T T rolled out, I think that it you they existed before, but that really put wound in their sales because people realize, wow, if we're gonna be if our c it makes sense, if our costs are doubling, right? We better be damn sure we know what we're paying for. We're able to attribute things accurately and w and to your point earlier, Mick, we better know who we're acquiring, how much they're probably gonna be worth.

Brett (50:30.1)

Yeah.

Mick Rigby (50:36.678)

Yeah, totally. I think, think, sorry, Brett, go ahead. I was going to say, think, I think, you know, from my perspective, think privacy forced the industry to rediscover experimentation, first party data. mean, looking more into cohort analysis, incrementality, you know, and then putting creativity and strategy and smart thinking right, right in front and center again, you know.

Brett (50:37.407)

Yeah, the No no go.

Brett (50:54.464)

Yeah.

Mick Rigby (51:03.236)

where we'd all been going down the easy route because the tech was doing it for us.

Brett (51:07.829)

Yeah, yeah, no, 'cause you've got a a bit more of a real time access to data when you do tested learn, right? You know, A versus B, you know, and and and and that gives you just a better read of what's happening in real time versus being reliant on sort of historical data.

Right, like large data sources, you can actually do stuff in in sort of real time that kind of helps make decisions, you know, that that affect campaigns, acquisition campaigns, and things like that. So so I thought i you know, big news that came out just I think it was today or yesterday was the the billion dollar fine that was handed down to Google by the and it wasn't the GDPR, it was the it was the it's the Digital Markets Act.

Rio (51:42.104)

Right, you what I read along with that? It was so funny. So apparently the EU is making more money fining American companies than it is from taxing European tech companies. That's just incredible.

Brett (51:52.48)

That yeah, so let's say that again. They're making more money from finding American companies than taxing European tech companies. I mean if you think about that, it's like you might want to fund more innovation and more tech companies within Europe.

Mick Rigby (51:53.21)

Wow. Wow.

Rio (51:56.237)

Yeah, then taxing European tech companies.

Rio (52:05.302)

Yeah, not saying the companies don't deserve the fines, maybe they do, maybe they don't, but it's just but may maybe your approach needs to be revisited. So yeah.

Brett (52:10.547)

Yeah. You know no but point the point and and I think to the point with with Google, I mean so so there was there was some stuff with within Google Play, but also within Google search. you know, and basically it was around it was i it antitrust around preferential treatment where Google's own services, shopping hotels, Google Play, you know, for for app downloads, get more prominent place placement and search results, right? And so, you know, i you know, and then you look at Apple.

And Apple's, you know, starting with that that conversation around ATT, you know, has a dramatic downstream impact because suddenly they've become much more of a black box, their their analytics aren't and data aren't available to to you know, app developers, et cetera, et cetera. Right is there a concentr in the app ecosystem, I mean they're already talking about Apple about releasing advertising into into Apple Maps, right? And they control yeah. So so is there too much of a concentration of power?

between these two providers, especially in the mobile ecosystem, where they control, you know, the means of downloading new apps, they control the access to data, and they have preferential you know, t tweaks to their to their systems so that you you're you're likely to buy f you know a particular product or search for a particular thing. So do you think there's too much concentration of power in in in in the mobile ecosystem right now, is that

Mick Rigby (53:32.73)

Yeah, absolutely. It's duopoly. Certainly across the Western world, they own the channel. They own the data. They actually have access to all the information that any advertiser, any brand, any product would want, and they own it. They set the prices in effect.

Brett (53:58.506)

Yeah.

Mick Rigby (54:00.026)

the, the, it's going to be interesting. You know, they, Apple are, as you suggest, opening up, you know, third party advertising in, in, in, in, in, in, apps. And I think it will go beyond there. It will probably be in the app store at some point, you know, but in order to do that, I was, was going to say that, you know, they, know, they, they have to, they have to start sharing some of the data and information they've got, which they, which is currently behind.

Brett (54:16.924)

Yeah, and Go on.

Mick Rigby (54:29.155)

You know, it's behind the wall. You know, so in order to in order to make greater profits, they're going to have to open themselves up a little bit to share some more of that information. So it's it's going to be interesting. So I'm not against it at all. But, you know, I do coming back to your original question, I do. You know, we are fully frustrated and we have to jump, you know, when the algorithm changes and, you know, there's a new rule put in and, you know, it's across the market and everybody has to jump.

you

Rio (54:59.842)

Yeah. Well it's a good point you made and I to to put a bow on the the point about the tax revenue versus fines. So like it just I just did a quick search here on Chat GPT. So the EU levied three point eight billion in fines against US tech companies twenty to in twenty twenty four and collected three point two billion dollars in revenue from EU tech companies. That's just crazy, right? yeah, it does doesn't make a lot of sense. But but but it it but yeah, I guess so.

Mick Rigby (55:22.243)

Well, you gotta make money where you can.

Rio (55:28.194)

But looking at the duopoly is it's is looking at US media, you go back around ten years, that was the big concern, is that I think nine more than ninety percent of incremental ad spend that was added every year was going to either Google or Meta. And you know, they were the duopoly, they were I think around two thirds of total ad spend at one point. But with the rise of retail media, with the rise of C T V, we've seen that get eroded significantly. And it turned out nothing had to be done about it, right?

Because the market just adjusted, these channels emerge. seems like mobile is not quite there yet, right? That it it is still relative to the rest of media, it's still you s they w what percent of overall activity and ad spend is going to the duopoly is controlled by them. Do you have any idea?

Mick Rigby (56:10.886)

I couldn't I couldn't tell you. think, you know, the the the in terms of, you know, Metta still plays a big part in terms of acquisition in the space. The and you do you do have a number of DSPs that are pretty big and have access to, you know, a broad swathe of apps that aren't sitting on, you know, on the Google platform. So, you know, there are still, you know, there's there is still opportunities outside of that. I think.

where the duopoly comes into play is they own the pipe. if you want to, if you're on the Apple platform or you're on the Google platform, the Android platform, you've got to go through Play Store and you've got to go through the Apple App Store. That is the only gateway.

Brett (56:56.468)

Yeah. It's yeah.

Rio (56:56.628)

They on distribution, right? I mean it's just no y like you're stuck. You're gonna go through Apple or or Google, that's or Android, yeah.

Brett (57:01.812)

Yeah, and in some cases, yeah, there's the they they own the hardware, they own the platform where apps are being downloaded, and they own the ad platform or how ads are being served across that that that app ecosystem within that environment. So that's a yeah, an interesting conundrum.

Mick Rigby (57:14.458)

That's right.

Rio (57:16.002)

Yeah, what what can you do? Yeah. Yeah.

Brett (57:20.146)

Yeah, the so I just looked it up. So so according in Google Meta and two well no, this is this is a little less app specific, right? Sort of app developers but it says Google Meta TikTok controls sixty seven percent of mobile ad dollars. Right, but that's a little less specific as to what we were talking about in terms of the concentration of the duopoly.

Rio (57:37.038)

Yeah, and then I think it globally look at like in s you look at number Android and people using Android is the majority globally. I think in US it's around fifty fifty, right? But Apple users are worth more. But yeah, between the two platforms, like between iOS and and Android, I mean that's pretty much the whole the whole game, right? I mean you've got you're you're paying the app store. You're you're paying an app store almost regardless for everything. So whether there's

Brett (57:44.861)

Yeah.

Brett (57:56.691)

Yeah, yeah.

Mick Rigby (57:56.805)

Yeah, and it's a big tax. I think it's 30 % still for Apple. know, that's what, you know, if you are looking at a subscription product through the Apple environment, you know, say goodbye to that initial 30%, you have to use the Apple ecosystem to advertise. They've got it sewn up.

Rio (58:02.542)

For Apple, yeah.

Brett (58:20.638)

Yeah, well and to well to that point, it well and it sounds like it's it's a four it's a four like in terms of ad spend across the app ecosystem, that the co there's a concentration of concentration of power, that kind of the the the point in this data. I mean it's really it's Google Meta, TikTok and Apple, right? But there are there's huge amount of of audience reach and engagement.

Rio (58:21.208)

Yeah.

Brett (58:40.764)

across the entire sort of app ecosystem that I don't think is probably being leveraged from an advertising perspective. If you're a brand and you're like, yeah, I want to reach these people, not within your classic, you know, sort of digital display or C T V programmatic ecosystems, but I want to reach them across apps, you know, digital digital termine is doing that. it still seems like there's just an almost an abhorrent concentration of power between for for total ad spend. I mean almost seventy percent between those those four, right? I mean is that something

That you consult on on your clients? I mean, is it you know a monetization strategy post like app launch where it's like, hey, I want to be part of the digital turbine ad network or whatever ad network it is, so I can actually get some of these ad dollars and we can spread some of that mobile app ad investment around, right? So it's so it's not so concentrated. Is that something that you guys that you tend to get involved with with your clients?

Mick Rigby (59:36.901)

Yeah, absolutely. think that, you monetization is a central pillar of most of our clients' challenges, you know. So it doesn't just start from, you know, how much does it cost me to get a user? You know, it's like, how can I monetize those users as effectively as possible? You know, so it goes, I mean, we as a business, we're absolutely, we're through the line, you know, we look everything from acquisition all the way through to

you know, long-term relationship building and everything in between. And, you know, you have to, you have to in this, in the space because, you know, there are so many challenges and there's so many, there's so many issues and there's so many levers that you need to be pulling to get the most out of those particular audiences.

Brett (01:00:26.045)

And you're not gonna do it just through subscription revenue. You're gonna do it just like just like you're seeing with the with the L L Ms and the Frontier models, is they need some sort of ad supported model to facil you know, to support their revenue targets, right, and their and their debt loads, right? So, you know

Mick Rigby (01:00:40.812)

Yeah, yeah, they do. But the vast majority of apps, know, they there isn't there. They aren't. They don't have sufficient user bases to be able to make ad models really, really sing for them. You know, they they can be the cherry on the top of the cake, but they're not they're not going to be the be all and end all. And I mean, you know, I'm just racking my brains now. I couldn't name.

Brett (01:00:57.587)

Yeah.

Mick Rigby (01:01:09.374)

single app that I'm aware of that is purely, purely done by app. Yeah, it just, it just doesn't work.

Brett (01:01:12.892)

Ad supported.

Brett (01:01:18.397)

Yeah, yeah. And it's it's like yeah, it's one thing to have mass reach across the sort of three billion monthly users or more in in within app the app ecosystems that are kind of available via sort of you know, app ad networks. but the other thing is either like the are the a actual app developers making any money. They they're a very small piece of a much longer tail

when it comes to the the ad spin. So it's great to be able to agg aggregate those audiences, but but I don't know if that that downstream impact for for to your point around the apps. Outside of the big players, right? Out outside of the major subscriber news publications, the metas, the tic techs, the Googles, the the Amazons, right? Very hard for others to kind of monetize any any 'cause they're just not to your point they're not getting enough traffic, right? It's a long t it's a long tail monetization challenge. And I think, you know

The programmatic ecosystem and the digital media ecosystem has faced that for a long time. It's how do actually, you know, you're a small publisher with a small audience online, how do you actually monetize effectively when you have a small audience, right? There's there's only so much you can do. It you it requires audience growth, right?

Mick Rigby (01:02:29.976)

Yeah, yeah. And to your point, you know, it's a long tale. It's a very, very fragmented audience. And therefore, you know, the the the majority out businesses have to look at what they what that product, what the out product actually does for that for their business as a whole, rather than generating revenue through through the apps that through the app itself. So, you know, banking is a great example of that. You know, that's

Brett (01:02:37.244)

Yeah.

Brett (01:02:54.323)

Yeah.

Mick Rigby (01:02:58.68)

brought the ability to bank 24 seven, know, anywhere in the world. And, you know, that that that's an incredible thing, but it's now a necessity for the majority of us. But but that's the evolution of banking, for instance, you know, the evolution.

Brett (01:03:14.759)

Yeah, and that's a very specific utility. Like the like Uber's a very specific utility. It's not a content play. And the and the and the ad supported models tend to favor obviously the content providers, the TikToks, right? The metas, right? User generated content, right? That's where you're gonna have large audiences versus I've logged into my bank and I'm I'm doing a financial transaction, right? They're not trying to monetize their their app for the same purposes. Right?

Mick Rigby (01:03:37.378)

Yeah.

Yeah, it's as you say, utilities purely facilitating that service in a more, you know, easy to use kind of way.

Brett (01:03:47.54)

Yeah.

Rio (01:03:48.396)

Makes sense, yeah. Should we move on to quick hits? Let's do it.

Brett (01:03:51.273)

Sure.

Mick Rigby (01:03:54.308)

I'm excited now. What are you going to throw at me, gents?

Brett (01:03:54.628)

so what is you want me start? We w we'll we'll throw you some softball so you could just, you know, well wha what what do you what do you I well I guess with a cricket analogy you would say we would you don't really throw, you bowl.

Rio (01:03:59.052)

Haha get prepared.

Brett (01:04:11.655)

And cricket, right? We'll bowl you some easy hits. trying to translate the language there. so most overrided overrated, excuse me, app growth metric.

Mick Rigby (01:04:12.036)

You're bowl, yes. You're a bowl.

Mick Rigby (01:04:26.446)

An install. It's not worth the paper it's written on. An install, it might not even be a human, you know? Forget it. Think further down the funnel, you know, an activated user or, you know, a number of actions or whatever you're gonna do, but don't look at installs.

Brett (01:04:34.078)

Yeah.

Rio (01:04:49.485)

I like that. W what's one app or company you've worked with that has a good mobile presence that you think's really just crushed it and mastered retention and like some using some of the techniques you just mentioned?

Mick Rigby (01:05:03.148)

Yeah, I think, you know, we haven't worked with them, but Headspace do a fantastic job of engagement and building up needs and, you know, taking that user on a journey to the next stage. The little vignettes that they build into the app, the communication, their push notifications that they send at the right time of day, just when you need that Headspace support. you know, they're brilliant. They've done an amazing job.

Brett (01:05:33.373)

So what's more difficult making campaigns forty over forty? Or or so we're gonna bring this full circle, but making campaigns forty over forty or surviving nineteen years in the mobile ecosystem.

Mick Rigby (01:05:47.3)

I wondered where this was going. Definitely survived. think, you know, it's cause and effect, isn't it? Surviving 19 years in the mobile space has basically allowed me to become part of the 40 over 40 by achieving the goal. Yeah, exactly.

Brett (01:06:07.295)

Yeah, exactly. What one doesn't exist without the other, right? Like, you know Yeah.

Mick Rigby (01:06:13.996)

God. Yeah, no, it's been it. mean, certainly in the early days when, you know, you talk to people and they're like, well, what's what's mobile? What's what's that? What's an app? You know, the education and the hard work then, you know, when when there was just two or three of us in the agency, you know, to where we are now. And it's you know, it's it's a global it's a global industry. You know, they just it's like chalk and cheese. So, yeah, getting through those 19 years definitely.

Rio (01:06:42.829)

Will people still use smartphones in ten years?

Mick Rigby (01:06:46.956)

I so. I think so. And I say that because, you know, two of the two of the most profitable businesses in the world, you know, own the infrastructure, you know, the hardware, the tech behind smartphones. So, you know, finding finding a way to continue to iterate and make those products useful and usable, it will will be one of their major goals.

And also, you touched on ChatGPT earlier and the fact that it was one of the fastest growing apps in the mobile space ever. Well, it is the fastest growing app ever. And you think about it, you're tying in the tech and what ChatGPT does with the most basic elements of a mobile phone. that is audio. ChatGPT, press a little microphone.

Where can I get the best curry tonight? I'm in London 15 miles, you know click

Rio (01:07:48.061)

it's great. It is so much better than Siri, by the way. The the voice recognition, it is like a hundred hundred.

Brett (01:07:53.885)

Yeah, yeah. App Apple kinda failed on that,

Mick Rigby (01:07:55.076)

They've got it right, haven't they?

Rio (01:07:55.374)

And and it's funny too, like actually I think I agree with you, Mick, and like you think about it, there and there's a lawsuit that was filed the other day where Apple is suing chat open AI, right? Because they apparently they post a bunch of Apple engineers and product people and s and some of them are like stole plans for phones. So if open AI is stealing Apple's product plans, I I'm pretty sure that we're gonna have phone like they're investing in phones and they don't expect like the demise of the smartphone anytime soon. So I think that's good good proof.

Mick Rigby (01:08:08.408)

Yeah.

Brett (01:08:22.172)

Yeah. I I I think it might be just the demise of the word phone and the word f smartphone, right? Because I mean it'd be interesting to see the stats around the percentage of usage per device, per phone device, that's actually phone oriented, right? That is the at the the the action of making a phone call, of connecting and and with someone

Mick Rigby (01:08:23.042)

Yeah, totally.

Mick Rigby (01:08:28.898)

Yeah.

Rio (01:08:42.089)

it depends on the generation. I still use it f f a few hours a day, Brett, but I think my I don't think my my daughter's thirteen. I don't think she ever she rarely makes calls. It she when she does it's like a bunch of kids together talking on like a group chat and they're playing a game together. It it's totally different usage, it's crazy.

Mick Rigby (01:08:47.468)

Yeah.

Brett (01:08:50.792)

Yeah.

Brett (01:08:57.234)

Yeah, it's it's probably seventy-five to eighty percent of total time spent on these devices is non phone related for the average person and probably goes up for the younger generations. You know, with the younger generation to your point, Brio, it's probably ninety-five percent. you know, it's it's it's it's almost no longer a phone. it's a it's a computer in your hand, you know. And when the iPhone came out, it was it was as powerful as the original sp space station not space station,

Mick Rigby (01:08:58.401)

Yeah.

Rio (01:09:09.975)

Ninety, ninety five percent, yeah.

Mick Rigby (01:09:24.781)

The Apollo.

Rio (01:09:24.941)

Space Shuttle? Apollo.

Brett (01:09:26.384)

No, not the Apollo. the The Space Shuttle, excuse me. yeah, so it was it was power as powerful as the computer systems for the original Space Shuttle, the first iPhone. And think of how how much further we've come along from that original device. so so on a you know, one AI use case that app marketers should should test this year.

Rio (01:09:29.207)

Space Shuttle.

Mick Rigby (01:09:52.359)

an AI use case. would say the way now that, I know this is quick fire, so apologies for being dawdling on this one, but AI, how discoverability of apps is now starting to be picked up in the AI space because a lot of the, well, all the LLMs, they're not privy to the exact AI.

They they're not they can't get through the wall. So the only data they're getting is the publicly available data. So, for instance, your listing on on on on the Apple App Store, they can read that and they can't see the metadata behind it. So changing what you say in your listing, which has, you know, has never really been that important, to be honest, in terms of discoverability. But now it is becoming far more important.

Brett (01:10:45.565)

Yeah.

Mick Rigby (01:10:50.113)

because that's what they can read. So that's the impact. So if I, you know, if you, if you have an app and you're looking at, you know, more discoverability, that's what I'd say in terms of testing from an AI perspective.

Brett (01:10:50.461)

Yeah.

Brett (01:11:01.116)

Yeah, it's almost AE AEO as it applies to or GEO as it applies to app discovery and discoverability, which is a big theme across the entire digital ecosystem, is how do you make your content, your products, your company, you could be a B to B services company, more discoverable to the L LMs. and it's it takes some takes some work. It's not it's not as easy as just your old SEO strategy. Right?

Mick Rigby (01:11:18.797)

Yes.

Mick Rigby (01:11:25.005)

Yeah, totally.

Rio (01:11:25.037)

All Mick, here's last one and then I know I know we all gotta gotta wrap in a minute. Finish the sentence. The next generation of winning apps will be

Mick Rigby (01:11:34.263)

The next generation of winning apps will be researching what their consumers want rather than deciding what their consumers want and building the app from the business's perspective.

Brett (01:11:45.586)

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, this was great. Hey, well yeah, yeah, thanks thanks, Mick. It was great great chatting about this. certainly we we've got a lot more into the mobile and the app world topics.

Rio (01:11:46.369)

Love it. Put the customer at center. Yeah, this is fun.

Brett (01:11:58.404)

over the last few episodes. So this has been a fascinating conversation. and certainly critical. I think critical to to the to the future of sort of digital and and consumer marketing, etc. so thanks for sharing your insights and your experience. we loved having you. And and go enjoy a nice cold pint that I know is waiting in the fridge or two. and don't ask your wife to get it for you.

Rio (01:12:13.857)

It's good to have you.

Rio (01:12:18.359)

Or two.

Mick Rigby (01:12:18.464)

Ooh.

Rio (01:12:22.327)

Yeah. He might be thrown at you, right?

Mick Rigby (01:12:23.437)

Hahaha!

Brett (01:12:24.476)

Yeah. And and so for everybody that made this far, you know, check us out on deb dot signal noise.ai, we're on Spotify, YouTube, Apple Podcasts. We are increasing our presence on TikTok TikTok, Instagram Reels, and a ton of great editorial, you know, insight driven editorial articles are are are are being published across the on our website.

So Rio's writing a bunch, we've got a lot of executive contributors, so check those out as well. It's not just podcasts. And we'll see you next time. Thanks everybody. And thanks, Mick.

Mick Rigby (01:12:59.469)

Thank you guys.

Rio (01:13:00.558)

Thanks, Mick.